Hey all, I recently stumbled upon this excellent site about the science in cooking. It's a fantastic read, and I found the 4 articles about Ike Jime really useful and interesting. Enjoy!
ike jime Cooking Issues
ike jime Cooking Issues
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Ike Jime on Cooking Issues
- Thread startersalibandy
- Start date
Thread Status: Hello
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Very interesting. I read the whole thing through, My family and I are very keen on fresh Sashimi, last saturday we ate a very nice "Rollizo" that I had speared the day before, it tasted great.
I, like most non-boat assisted spearos I guess, just kill the fish and hang it on my float. I was wondering what practical use these tips could have to spearing?
Could I try to pull the gills out, or cut the main artery? All would have to be done in water and after braining. I can't work out if the bleeding trick, with heart pumping, can be done after braining. If not, I would not do it. I could not make fish suffer just to get a slightly better taste.
I, like most non-boat assisted spearos I guess, just kill the fish and hang it on my float. I was wondering what practical use these tips could have to spearing?
Could I try to pull the gills out, or cut the main artery? All would have to be done in water and after braining. I can't work out if the bleeding trick, with heart pumping, can be done after braining. If not, I would not do it. I could not make fish suffer just to get a slightly better taste.
Hi Azapa, as far as I know the heart in most fish keeps beating long enough after death to allow the fish to bleed out, usually by snipping the gills after braining.
Fish suffering as little as possible is important to me too.
Bleeding does make a difference to the taste of the fish.
On the subject of sashimi, most people would be suprised to know how old the fish is that's served in the top sashimi restaurants.
One top chef will only serve tuna that is four days old, they also freeze it to kill any nasties, this guy freezes at -72* to maintain the colour.
Fresh isn't always best.
Regards,
Dave.
Fish suffering as little as possible is important to me too.
Bleeding does make a difference to the taste of the fish.
On the subject of sashimi, most people would be suprised to know how old the fish is that's served in the top sashimi restaurants.
One top chef will only serve tuna that is four days old, they also freeze it to kill any nasties, this guy freezes at -72* to maintain the colour.
Fresh isn't always best.
Regards,
Dave.
Dave, I guess it is dependant on the chef or maybe the situation?
I have been lucky to have eaten with & socialised with two top Japanese chefs & maybe even luckier to have eaten their prepared food!
I had been working on an amazing Koi pond construction.
The house owner was pretty well known & on the opening night of his new house (renovated mansion) party, he held a magnificent Japanese themed event.
"Hello" magazine was there as was the Governor of Guernsey & various (unknown to me ) celebrities.
Anyhow, the home-owner had flown over two of the very best Japanese sushi and sashimi chefs.
Basically I was asked to help supply the fish but this was not as easily said as done!
These guys are really serious about their ingredients; they wanted local fish - live local fish!
Anyhow ... it seemed that a spear shot fish was about as good as it could possibly get for these guys.
The very fact that wild caught fish, speared through the head fish, could be supplied, was better than they could of ever wished for!
It is a long story, really to be told "face to face" but in the week they were in Guernsey I learnt a lot....
My point is - shoot fish in the head - let them bleed natually & the first step is complete.
I have been lucky to have eaten with & socialised with two top Japanese chefs & maybe even luckier to have eaten their prepared food!
I had been working on an amazing Koi pond construction.
The house owner was pretty well known & on the opening night of his new house (renovated mansion) party, he held a magnificent Japanese themed event.
"Hello" magazine was there as was the Governor of Guernsey & various (unknown to me ) celebrities.
Anyhow, the home-owner had flown over two of the very best Japanese sushi and sashimi chefs.
Basically I was asked to help supply the fish but this was not as easily said as done!
These guys are really serious about their ingredients; they wanted local fish - live local fish!
Anyhow ... it seemed that a spear shot fish was about as good as it could possibly get for these guys.
The very fact that wild caught fish, speared through the head fish, could be supplied, was better than they could of ever wished for!
It is a long story, really to be told "face to face" but in the week they were in Guernsey I learnt a lot....
My point is - shoot fish in the head - let them bleed natually & the first step is complete.
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Don't know about that, but from what I know, even after the brain dies, organs continue to function for a while more. I've seen that happen in a motorcycle accident, when the heart has been ripped away from the body but is still pumping. So I'm guessing it's the same with fishes.
And Dave is right, sashimi is almost never eaten instantly. It's usually kept overnight in a freezer and then had the next day. As for tuna, I think most keep them in the freezing cold for at least 72 hours before serving. Again, I think it's to let the flavour mature and also to kill off whatever parasites or bacteria that may be in the fish.
And Dave is right, sashimi is almost never eaten instantly. It's usually kept overnight in a freezer and then had the next day. As for tuna, I think most keep them in the freezing cold for at least 72 hours before serving. Again, I think it's to let the flavour mature and also to kill off whatever parasites or bacteria that may be in the fish.
Lets be honest it is going to be pretty difficult to serve fresh tuna anywhere other than where tuna are caught.
I dont actually know but aren't most tuna caught & then frozen on board the fishing vessel & then possibly shipped or flown half way around the world to reach the Japanese markets?
I dont actually know but aren't most tuna caught & then frozen on board the fishing vessel & then possibly shipped or flown half way around the world to reach the Japanese markets?
In this case, i caught on saturday mid day, filleted on sunday morning, froze individual fillets and served at sunday lunch. I would say it could not have been better. Of course the company, view and nice cold Sauv. Blanc helps 
I wonder what is optimal:
A. Store, filet, freeze and eat
B. Filet, freeze, defrost, store and eat
It is clear that the flesh needs to break down (rot) a bit to soften. I wonder what the optimal rot time would be for your average white (not too oily) fish?
yummy thread!
I wonder what is optimal:
A. Store, filet, freeze and eat
B. Filet, freeze, defrost, store and eat
It is clear that the flesh needs to break down (rot) a bit to soften. I wonder what the optimal rot time would be for your average white (not too oily) fish?
yummy thread!
azapa, I don't think filleting before or after freezing makes a very significant difference. Where I live, all the fish is flown in for the Japanese restaurants. The one I used to work in always bought iced whole fish and filleted them. Never have I seen ready fillets, except for the bigger fishes, like tuna.
Why do you say that the fish needs to rot? The idea of freezing is not to let the fish rot.
foxfish, yeah you are right.
Why do you say that the fish needs to rot? The idea of freezing is not to let the fish rot.
foxfish, yeah you are right.
Sali, i am comparing the aging of most meats, like steaks for example, to improve texture and flavour. Once anything dies, it starts decomposing (rotting). It was more of a joke than anything to use that exact word, but the mechanism is the same.
I was unaware that this were true for fish (need for aging) until this thread.
Cheers
I was unaware that this were true for fish (need for aging) until this thread.
Cheers
In our standards the fresh caught, never frozen fish, has 14 day shelf life from date of catch if kept at 32'F (or just above 0' C). It doesn't freeze but VERY cold. For every 2 degrees above 32' F tiime is striken off. If frozen fish is slaked out (thawed) it has 7 days shelf life if kept at 32' F.
Unlike with terrestrial meats "aging" (allowing enzym action not bacterial growth), which is properly done at low 34-38' F temps, fish, shellfish and poultry [in my humble opinion], should not be "aged"!
Unlike with terrestrial meats "aging" (allowing enzym action not bacterial growth), which is properly done at low 34-38' F temps, fish, shellfish and poultry [in my humble opinion], should not be "aged"!
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I see. Well, as far as I know in regards to sashimi, the idea of freezing the fish is to slow decomposition, as that will badly affect the texture of the flesh. The flesh needs to be crunchy, sort of. Kept too long and the texture goes. But I guess you are right, there has to be an optimal period for having a fish to sashimi. Think the only way to find out is ask a master.
But generally, like I mentioned before, most fish are kept one night before serving. That's the rule of thumb, of course with some exceptions, least I was told.
But generally, like I mentioned before, most fish are kept one night before serving. That's the rule of thumb, of course with some exceptions, least I was told.
I eat anything that doesn't move fast enough to get away. All joking aside, yes I like raw fish and ceviche (cooked in citrus). I will freeze fresh caught tuna or bonita and slice extremely thin. Serve with sot/wasabi, sometime apricot brandy/jam mixture. Sesame oil is okay too. I really love smoked eel.