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Immersion pulmonary edema/lung squeeze---HELP!

Thread Status: Hello , There was no answer in this thread for more than 60 days.
It can take a long time to get an up-to-date response or contact with relevant users.
Hypoxia during apnea results in peripheral vasocosntriction.

Hypoxia during eupnea (breathing), e.g., mountaineering, results in peripheral vasodilation (= vasodepression)

Lung expansion above FRC (wet) typically results in reflex vasodepression, so that ascending from depth is like climbing to altitude, albeight in an accelerated way; lungs re-expanding is akin to breathing in. Coupled with a reversing blood shift, i.e., from core to periphery, some pulmonary capillaries would cease to flow, in line with hypoxic pulmonary vasoconstriction. This would result in pulmonary hypertension. Since the pulmonary ciculation is a low pressure system this could result in edema. To further aggarvate the situation, a weakening dive response during ascent would only serve to accelerate this hypoxia, especially if fatigue and swimming is involved. Cold-induced peripheral vasoconstriction would add to the increase in pulmonary blood pressure, just like with mountaineers.
Interesting stuff Seb. It sounds like the ascent part and reversal of the DR is similar to Altitude Sickness which if i'm not mistaken is hypoxia mediated pulmonary hypertension (and cerebral hypertension at times). The latter might be beneficial, no?
I know you usually don't use masks, but have you happen to compare dives (FRC and TLC) with and without sniffing mask air on ascent?
If you dive deep you could regain quite a lot of O2 on the ascent, on the other hand I suppose it cancels the DR even faster and elevates HR.

These posts are a treat, would love to hear more. :)
 
Those experiments we did comparing E- and F-dives, several years ago now, had novice and experineced subjects, with the exception of myself all wore masks. I cannot say if the experienced divers re-inhaled the air, maybe they didn't maybe some did, but the HRs were always for an increase with F-dives.

The question is wether exhaling on ascent could prevent a reversal in the DR. If it does great, but then O2 stores are lost and it would also not be energetically efficient from a buoyancy point of view. I need to test this. I'll be testing the guys during the Nat Geo doco in Mallorca in early Oct. Hopefully we'll get a better picture. We're also doing some blood flow measurements u/w to see what happens to brain blood flow during ascent under various conditions. An additional part of the experiments is to to see what happens to PaN2 during diving on E-dives: does it continue to rise or level off? This stuff has never been done before and we should be able to discover some altogether new and interesting things not only ablout hypoxia, but narcosis and DCI also.

S
 
Deep Thought,

Don't know about cerebral hypertension, but part of the cardiac output would be redistributed to the periphery, which isn't ideal, especially end-apnea where the brain would need all it can.

S
 
I have completely overcome the pulmonary edema problem. It was very intuitive and obvious to me that being cold and shivering while diving was the primary contributing factor.
Very interesting. I had a bout of mystery lung trouble a couple of years ago which coincided with doing a lot of swimming. It never actually happened while swimming, so it is difficult to tell if it was pulmonary edema, long-term chlorine exposure or both. I do shiver a lot and get cold easily.
 
Hey Kurt!

I'm a triathlete from Montreal and have experienced what I believe was SIPE - Swimming Induced Pulmonary Edema... I think there might be a common link between what is happening to both you, and I.

I experience SIPE usually in the first 750m of a competitive triathlon swim - cold water - in a wetsuit. Rapid start with no warm-up, so the lungs seem to be getting overloaded and flood as a result.

I was recently diagnosed with high BP, so have been taking meds to see if that will eliminate high BP as one of the trigger mechanisms.

I was also intrigued when I read that you are a triathlete as well.

You might find this article I co-wrote on 'Slowtwich' - A triathlon forum - interesting : <:: Welcome to Slowtwitch.com ::>: Swimming Induced Pulmonary Edema (SIPE)

I would be happy to share what I know with you, and put you in touch with the research scientists I've been working with to try and figure out what is causing this and how to prevent it...

Kind Regards,
Kat
 
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One curiosity of mine is that if my lungs are especially susceptible to edema, will this possibly promote thoracic filling when I dive deeper, thus making my condition advantageous? Perhaps lung squeeze some times results from possessing an opposite trait to mine, i.e., having relatively impermeable alveolar walls; if thoracic filling can't occur due to this, lung squeeze is probably inevitable once one surpasses his residual volume far enough. I wonder if the "heavy" feeling I'd detect in my lungs after a few dives, thus indicating that the edema has started, feels just like thoracic filling. The heavy feeling and my impaired breathing would always remain for ~24hrs though, whereas I've heard that lung fluid from thoracic filling subsides within minutes.
I wonder about that too. If I do anything that causes negative pressure in my lungs, even dry forced exhale statics, I get that 'heavy' feeling for a few minutes afterwards. Not sure if that is good or bad, but for now I am careful not to overdo it.
 
Since this thread has become active again, I will update my post from earlier this year. While doing physical therapy after ACL surgery, I told my therapist about the bleeding in my lungs. He gave me some ribcage stretching exercises that I have done now for about six months. I am back in the water and am having no problems at all - no sign or feeling of blood/fluid in my lungs. So, at least in my case, it was just a matter of specific exercises and getting into better shape (the latter in general).

Thanks,

Scott
yae2
 
Hey Kurt!

I'm a triathlete from Montreal and have experienced what I believe was SIPE - Swimming Induced Pulmonary Edema... I think there might be a common link between what is happening to both you, and I.

Wow...That was the most comprehensive article on activity-induced pulmonary edema (AIPE) I've ever read. Thank you very much for sharing it. It's interesting that it's difficult to find any other comprehensive, scientific reviews on AIPE out there. I was also surprised that my search through the vast message base of Deeperblue didn't turn up anything specific to PE, although the more familiar issue of lung squeeze is probably closely related. I think it's because PE occurs in a very small minority of individuals, so my fellow divers and the researchers haven't had much impetus to consider the issue seriously. Those of us that have been afflicted by it feel very strongly about it, though, because it's so horrible to experience.

I experience SIPE usually in the first 750m of a competitive triathlon swim - cold water - in a wetsuit. Rapid start with no warm-up, so the lungs seem to be getting overloaded and flood as a result.

I have probably experienced freediving-induced PE to varying degrees at least two dozen times now, but I've never experienced it while swimming. And I have done plenty of swimming in cold pools/open water to the point of shivering, including very hard swim workout sets. Weird, huh?

I've competed in numerous triathlons, including a few involving wetsuits swims. Never noticed PE in these either. The stories in your article are scary. The interesting thing in several of those stories is that you guys wouldn't experience any SIPE in your training swims in the exact same circumstances as your races (i.e., wearing wetsuits in open water), but succumb to it very quickly in your races. I guess your blood pressure may be higher during the races due to higher cardiac output, but I think your blood pressure could possibly be higher for another reason that hasn't been mentioned...Stress from the race.

I mention this because I'm starting to believe that stress has been a consistent factor in my cases. I have done some very deep dives lately (for my ability, that is...down to 58m/192ft), and I didn't really even notice any PE, even though it might be expected, not as abnormal AIPE, but the more expectable "thoracic filling" that occurs in deep freedivers. This diving was done in a Performance Freediving course, where our warm-ups were very thorough, dive conditions were favorable, etc...Essentially, doing the utmost to minimize stress in hopes of pushing our limits and doing personal-best dives. Then, in some spearfishing dives just this past weekend, to a max depth of 25m/80ft, I experienced some light PE. In these dives, conditions were not that great (strong current, kayaking beforehand, etc.), so my stress level was high. And I can recall in nearly all of my past experiences with PE that I was highly-stressed, usually from trying to dive in strong current. Of course, diving in current would coincide with higher cardiac output and thus higher blood pressure from working harder, but I still think that stress is a linking factor in our cases. Perhaps the stress, itself, temporarily increases our blood pressure significantly.

Another interesting thing in some of the cases in your article was that some individuals actually coughed up blood. I always made a distinction between my PE and the condition of lung squeeze that is more familiar to freedivers on the basis that I never coughed up blood...Just yellow blood plasma without the RBCs. I thought the blood could only result if alveoli were ruptured, which is what is believed to happen in lung squeeze; I believed I was not rupturing alveoli in my incidents of PE since it appeared that only plasma was crossing over, through its permeability. But since you've identified some victims of SIPE that coughed up blood, the fundamental difference between lung squeeze and PE that I reasoned may no longer be valid. A possibility, though, is that the blood is not coming from the lungs, but instead the trachea. The very hard coughing accompanying a bad bout with PE may cause trauma to the trachea. There is some belief, though, that the blood emitted in a bout with lung squeeze could also be coming from the trachea instead of the lungs, due, essentially, to tearing the trachea by stretching it under high negative pressure when deep.

I was recently diagnosed with high BP, so have been taking meds to see if that will eliminate high BP as one of the trigger mechanisms.

I will make it a point to get a physical examination soon to check on my BP. I seriously doubt that I have BP though.

I was also intrigued when I read that you are a triathlete as well.

Since abnormal PE doesn't seem to happen in many freedivers, I've tried to think of what unique characteristics I have as a freediver. I don't know of many who are serious endurance athletes, so I've suspected that my training as a triathlete is possibly a factor, and that the idea of having thinner alveolar walls as an adaptation from training is plausible (never found a reference to this yet though). Of course many freedivers undoubtedly practice endurance activities too, especially the most competitive ones, many of which have demonstrated that they do most of their training "dry" (i.e., lots of cardiovascular training on land), then enter the ocean to do dive-specific training only a few weeks before their performances (e.g., Pipin, Tanya Streeter, Mandy-Rae Cruickshank). But I've never seen in their training programs the really intense, above lactate-threshold training that many serious endurance athletes perform (e.g., 10 x 400m intervals at the track). Perhaps this highest level of cardiovascular training is required to develop the adaptation of thinner alveolar walls. I'm curious to find out if Topi Lintukangas (former professional Ironman triathlete) or Stephane Mifsud (very active athlete, judging from his promotional videos), two successful professional freedivers, ever experienced PE, considering their high levels of cardiovascular training.

Ultimately, though, I think this will all be attributable to some characteristic(s), perhaps genetically-derived, that are unique to the few of us that do experience AIPE...Something like the "diastolic dysfunction" mentioned in your article. There are so many other divers and athletes out there that can tolerate the possible contributing factors of PE we've noted without pathology; e.g., plenty of freedivers get cold (or even intentionally allow themselves to get cold for enhanced peripheral vasoconstriction) without experiencing PE; in triathlons plenty of other swimmers are working at high cardiac workload without having to stop midway to clutch a kayak and cough up blood; etc. There's got to be something fundamentally different about us. It definitely doesn't occur randomly; we are at risk of it happening repeatedly. I'm confident that I could fill my lungs with plenty of fluid by going out and diving with no wetsuit, in case any researcher wanted to observe it.

I'll keep in touch with you.
 
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Kurt,

Here is my 2 cents. I think you have combined two thing, being tense and not having good lung flexibility. I have a brother in law who is a triathelete and is in awesome shape and has a huge massive chest and can hardly bend over to touch his toes and also can hardly sit still and relax. When he visited our house in the country he always wanted some music on as the quiet drove him nuts!!

So extrapolating from this I think you have large lungs and large lung capacity but can only exhale maybe half way that you should be able to due to "patterened" breathing while running and swimming training, essentially taking 1/2 breaths all the time. Then when you freedive and are tense, maybe sometimes tense from cold or not, thus the variability, you lungs become even more "ridgid".

The good news is that this is easy to measure with a spirometer (I think this is right term) and cooperative doctor. Then if you find that you can exhale less than normal, and agree with me that you are a "tense" person the thing to do is learn to relax, yoga class is very good, astanga is very good if they teach with synchronized breathing and do lung flexibility excercises.

Another thing is that if you do negative dives for warmup to do them quickly, go down then right up for if you wait at the bottom the you can have fluid build up in your lungs, this is what I have been told, though I think its more the above in your case.

Hope this helps - Cheers Wes Lapp
 
Kurt,

Here is my 2 cents. I think you have combined two thing, being tense and not having good lung flexibility. I have a brother in law who is a triathelete and is in awesome shape and has a huge massive chest and can hardly bend over to touch his toes and also can hardly sit still and relax. When he visited our house in the country he always wanted some music on as the quiet drove him nuts!!

So extrapolating from this I think you have large lungs and large lung capacity but can only exhale maybe half way that you should be able to due to "patterened" breathing while running and swimming training, essentially taking 1/2 breaths all the time. Then when you freedive and are tense, maybe sometimes tense from cold or not, thus the variability, you lungs become even more "ridgid".

The good news is that this is easy to measure with a spirometer (I think this is right term) and cooperative doctor. Then if you find that you can exhale less than normal, and agree with me that you are a "tense" person the thing to do is learn to relax, yoga class is very good, astanga is very good if they teach with synchronized breathing and do lung flexibility excercises.

Thanks for your thoughts, Wes. I am quite familiar with the idea that having poor thorax flexibility may contribute to lung squeeze. On the contrary, I suspect that I possess good thorax flexibility (but I'll let you know otherwise if I get to have that checked on). I have done my fair share of packing and reverse packing exercises, but I believe my decent chest flexibility may actually be due more to my cardiovascular training. I used to average 15+ hrs/wk of high-quality training, all of which time was spent exercising my breathing muscles and expanding my chest constantly. I believe this has definitely helped rather than harmed my freediving.

During my training, I hardly breathe with only "1/2 breaths all the time". Many years ago I figured out diaphragmatic breathing on my own, which I incorporated into my running in order to avoid the terrible side stitches I used to get early on. Since getting into freediving a few years ago, I realized the value of the diaphragmatic breathing in freediving, and figured I'd make an effort to practice it all the more while running. With it I can keep my breathing rate extremely low, even up to a relatively high effort level, compared to most other runners (me = 10 - 15 breaths/min...compared to others' 45 - 60 breaths/min).

I am a recent graduate of the Performance Freediving advanced course, and I know you've also been a student of theirs. My constant weight PB was established there only a few weeks ago at 58m (which was not accompanied by any noticeable thoracic filling, as I would have expected), and I could still clear my ears at that depth. My PB static is 7:11. So I know a thing or two about freediving... I don't think I could reach the level I'm at if I didn't know how to relax or access the majority of my lung volume.

Another thing is that if you do negative dives for warmup to do them quickly, go down then right up for if you wait at the bottom the you can have fluid build up in your lungs, this is what I have been told, though I think its more the above in your case.

I was going to mention this for the other freedivers that experience PE, although I don't think there are many out there. It's definitely true that negatives can cause premature filling, as I used to be able to instigate PE in my first 10 min. of diving by doing an FRC (this is when I was only wearing a 3mm suit and getting cold fairly quickly). But this advice should be heeded by all freedivers. Apparently, some (like Annabel and Jessica on the Big Island) practice "hanging" negatives in their warm-up. The onset of PE or thoracic filling is usually very subtle, so that you wouldn't detect immediately when it has begun. But once it has started, you shouldn't be able to fill your lungs to their fill capacity any more, and you'll have lost some amount of your alveolar surface area for gas exchange, thus limiting performance. I've heeded this advice from Kirk, especially with my susceptibility to PE; I only allow myself one negative in my warm-up instead of multiple, and I make sure to avoid hanging out at the turnaround.

As I mentioned a while back, I pretty much completely overcame my problem with PE by getting a thick enough wetsuit so that I could finally stay warm. So I have solved the problem for myself. But for these individuals that experience PE while swimming, it is still unpredictable. The explanations you and the other contributors to this thread have supplied may apply to me, but they are not all that relevant in these cases of SIPE, which is clearly the same pathology as my freediving-induced PE. For example, with regard to your explanation of being too tense, would you argue that only those swimmers experiencing PE are getting cold and keeping their bodies too tense, while all the other swimmers unafflicted by PE are not? I'd say that the very act of swimming tenses the whole body up, so it's not just that a few swimmers are always tense and getting PE while the rest are not. The underlying cause, which I must share with those susceptible to SIPE, is related to some rare characteristic deeper in the physiology; it is not just attributable to some deficiency that we share in our technique. We are trying to figure out just what this physiological trait(s) is. You almost have to experience it yourself to realize how hopelessly inexplicable it is, especially since so few individuals experience it that it gets much recognition (as evidenced by the doctors misdiagnosing and dismissing it in one of stories in Kat's article). Fortunately, it seems so rare that most of you will never have to deal with it.
 
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I wonder about that too. If I do anything that causes negative pressure in my lungs, even dry forced exhale statics, I get that 'heavy' feeling for a few minutes afterwards. Not sure if that is good or bad, but for now I am careful not to overdo it.

One time recently I pushed my reverse packing and diaphragm stretching (dry) really far, and I think I noticed a little raspy breathing for a short while afterwards. I shrugged it off thinking it must be impossible to make it happen on land...

In my PFD class, we did a pool exercise where we were meant to do increasingly negative dives (to the point of doing as many reverse packs as we could before going down), sinking to the bottom of the 10ft pool head-first to practice trying to bring up more air for equalizing under extreme negative pressure. I think I did about 12 - 15 dives of varying negative pressure, and at the end of the exercise my breathing was noticeably raspy, indicating that I had induced thoracic filling in only a 10ft pool. Kirk corroborated my experience by sharing that once he and Martin were doing the same thing in a relatively shallow pool, and they, too, were able to induce thoracic filling.

I actually gather a bit of confidence for avoiding lung squeeze from knowing that my alveoli are so permeable. I am (perhaps falsely) counting on my alveoli to allow plasma through instead of rupturing and allowing blood through as I attempt to dive deeper. Whereas I used to despise my PE, I am now trying to think of it as an asset that I can count on when I need it deep.

The interesting thing is, in my recent PB dive of 58m, I came up expecting some significant thoracic filling...But I didn't notice any at all! In fact, I never noticed any PE in multiple days of diving deeper than usual throughout my course. As I mentioned in a recent post, I really think that stress can be a contributing factor in PE, and this was kept at a minimum throughout the course.
 
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I actually gather a bit of confidence for avoiding lung squeeze from knowing that my alveoli are so permeable. I am (perhaps falsely) counting on my alveoli to allow plasma through instead of rupturing and allowing blood through as I attempt to dive deeper. Whereas I used to despise my PE, I am now trying to think of it as an asset that I can count on when I need it deep.
Could be. I have never had problems with lung squeeze doing negatives in the deep end of the pool, but they just feel too awful, so I don't do them any more.

If you don't mind answering, have you ever had any problems such as a serious chest infection, allergy with wheezing or lung problem caused by smoking or dust in the workplace? I am asking because I am not sure if there is a connection between permeable lungs and past damage.
 
Kurt,

Hey, this is a great thread and thanks for sharing your experiences with everyone. I didn't mean to imply you had bad form or anything, as we all know part of the fascination of freediving is the ability to always learn and improve. I spit up some blood when I was doing PB CNF dives and later figured out it was from gulping up air while I was having contractions at depth. I think the "lung squeeze" was made worse by the contractions and then on top of that trying to "gulp" up air to equalize.

There is a much different way of doing this that I am now working on of being relaxed and having much more lung flexibility to more "effortlessly" do these dives that end up being to around 50m. Part of my vision is to do dives that I feel confident and easy doing them, not trying to "push" at all. This is part of transitioning to doing FRC dives as well though I cannot equalize as deep doing FRC so am working on the "ease" of this too (although so far it hasn't been that easy!!).

Congrats too on your PB of 58m, that is an excellent mark.



Anyway Cheers Wes
 
I seem to be getting a mild version of squeeze, PE, or similar.

I do diaphram stretches and reverse pack negatives several times a week as part of pool workouts, practicing equalizing deep. I've squeezed (or PEed) myself several times by pushing too hard and have learned the warning signs to avoid it. Recently I've begun diving exhale and discovered that I can't read the signs outside the pool early enough to avoid it happening again . For me, it feels initially like too much pressure inside the lungs, even though I can still clear (just barely). After the "squeeze", I want to cough, no phlem, no blood, but irritated lungs way down deep inside, feels wet and I don't want to draw a full breath. Feels like the tail end of a bad chest cold which slowly goes away after several weeks. The irritation persists for several weeks and in that time my ability to do negatives is very limited. Pushing it at all sets the clock back.

There are definite differences in susceptibility to "squeeze" from day to day. Part of it is relaxation, part getting diaphragm-stretched out ahead of time and part I'm not sure.

I don't know if it is relevant, but what I think are pretty extreme reverse pack negatives in a 4 m pool feel about the same as 35 m cw full lung. Seems like this should be equivalent to much greater depth.


Anybody else get this kind of thing? Kurt, did your problem ever feel like this?

How do I work on it?

Connor
 
Hello,

I feel obliged to advise all of you who are practicing with negatives and negatives with reverse packing to ease off a little. I very much doubt that these exercises help your deep diving ability. You do know that doing a full negative and sinking to the bottom simulates pressures on your lungs and within your chest that you'll never experience while diving? You are simulating a descent that is nearly impossible in terms of speed and you most likely are not ready for the rapid change of condition within your thoracic cavity. If you come up with some coughing and wheezing, however mild, it is too much, in my opinion. I really disagree with PFI doing this with new or even intermediate freedivers, but that's just my opinion. I really don't see how it's relevant.

Diving FRC or exhale is something to be undertaken gradually over weeks and months, not an hour or two. If you are patient, diving FRC should result in much greater flexibilty and the ability to equalize much more deeply with regular frenzel. If you rush it, however, not good.

I doubt that thoracic filling happens on a full inhale dive until you get over 75m or more. Of course it is possible, but you shouldn't be trying to do negatives to encourage it. Instead, focus on doing shallow dives with less lung volume and try your utmost to keep you inhalation within normal lung volume values.

If you are getting any sort of squeeze during pool training or line training, you are doing something wrong or have some other medical condition. So stop what you are doing and rest and then do scale things back.

There is really little use in simluating 100m of depth in a 4m pool. :duh Especially if you want to enjoy diving for the rest of your life.

Pete
 
I spit up some blood when I was doing PB CNF dives and later figured out it was from gulping up air while I was having contractions at depth. I think the "lung squeeze" was made worse by the contractions and then on top of that trying to "gulp" up air to equalize.

Just out of curiosity, do you distinguish between CO2 contractions and pressure contractions? I don't read Deeperblue enough to know whether this is already an established convention out there, but I've never come across anything concerning what Kirk Krack calls "pressure contractions". These are distinct from the more familiar contractions you get when your CO2 level reaches a high level; the pressure contractions result when you compress your thorax inward enough to trigger the alarm in the stretch receptors of the [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intercostal_muscle"]intercostal muscles[/ame]. Very forceful contractions result (which I suspect might not only be produced by the diaphragm, but perhaps the intercostal muscles too, because they feel different than normal contractions); it is obvious that they are distinct from CO2 contractions because they can happen extremely early in a breathhold, much earlier than you accumulate a critically high level of CO2. I can easily cause pressure contractions within only a 30 second breathhold if I perform extreme reverse packing, and they are also typical when I do negative dives in a pool or on a rope in my warm-up dives.

Of course, they can also occur when performing a deep dive near one's limits, when you are compressing your thorax more than it is used to. In the discussions of lung squeeze, it has already been pointed out that having contractions at depth may be responsible for causing the squeeze; the forceful contractions create enormous temporary negative pressures inside the lungs, pushing the alveolar walls past their breaking point. I suspect that the pressure contractions are nearly always responsible in cases of lung squeeze where contractions occurred at depth; CO2 contractions (when underwater) are so gentle in comparison, and one shouldn't even experience CO2 contractions as early as the apex of a dive anyway, in general.

This lends to the well-established idea that thorax flexibility is important in the depth disciplines. You and I will undoubtedly run into pressure contractions at much more modest depths than the pros, because we still have a lot of work to do on our thorax flexibility. But perhaps the stretch receptor alarm can be recalibrated through training as well...
 
Hey Kurt,

Just to jump in here, I have experienced what I believe you are referring to when you say "pressure contractions." However, only when I am tense before and during the dive - when I have some kind of mental fear of a new depth or somehow panic in the slightest way (chipmunks talking to me on the way down) :). They can best be described by what Annabel experienced as she referred to them as "hiccups," and I have had them on the way down as well as on the way up. They certainly originate in the throat/thorax area, not the diaphragm.

Yes, the times I have been lung squeezed - even slightly, I remember having these pressure contractions, and they can occur very quickly - i.e. - once or twice a second. However, on my PB CWT dive for example, I did not have any and was absolutely relaxed even at the turn and surfaced completely fine without any complications. Yet I have had them at much shallower depths. At the onset of these pressure contractions, I can slow them down by concentrating, but my only thought as to why I get them on some dives and not others has to do with my level of comfort and relaxation as far as I can tell. Who knows...

I didn't realize Kirk mentioned this in the clinic, I think other divers may experience these too as well as the possibility that there may be a connection between lung squeeze and these pressure contractions to some extent. This is interesting.
 
For me, it feels initially like too much pressure inside the lungs, even though I can still clear (just barely). After the "squeeze", I want to cough, no phlem, no blood, but irritated lungs way down deep inside, feels wet and I don't want to draw a full breath. Feels like the tail end of a bad chest cold which slowly goes away after several weeks.

My edema feels exactly the same way. Most of the time it gradually develops over the course of numerous dives, so there is a spectrum of feelings I experience. The initial onset of it is hardly detectable...It might only feel like my lungs are sort of "heavy". From there it might progress to a slight shortness of breath and increased recovery time between dives, along with a higher heartrate. It will propagate into obvious fatigue, and the feeling of not being able to draw a full inhale (at the end of the inhale you feel like you have to cough). At some point, with forceful exhales you can notice the tell-tale raspy sound in the lungs ("rales"). In my worst cases, where I wrecklessly continued to dive way too far beyond the onset, I would notice the sensation of fluid bubbling up the back of my throat during every descent, requiring my utmost determination to hold back coughing; this was due to the incompressible fluid being forced up the only exit when my lungs compressed during every descent.

The irritation persists for several weeks and in that time my ability to do negatives is very limited. Pushing it at all sets the clock back.

The scary thing about your situation is how long your recovery from each episode takes. I have almost always recovered within 24hrs, which also seems to be the case for most other victims of AIPE. Most victims of lunq squeeze, on the other hand, report taking several weeks to recover. The brevity of my recovery in comparison is another of the attributes I've used to distinguish between my PE and full-on lung squeeze (in addition to the absence of blood). I suspect that victims of true lung squeeze have physically ruptured alveoli, whereas my alveoli remain intact; the repair of ruptured alveoli perhaps takes several weeks, whereas it is only a matter of hours for my blood plasma to seep back across the alveolar membranes. If you really require that long to recover, maybe you actually are experiencing lung squeeze rather than my milder situation of PE (although it is curious that you don't notice any blood). It has been pointed out that if you experience lung squeeze once, you may always be more susceptible to it, because the alveoli may not be repaired "like new"...

A question I have is why does it take me nearly 24hrs to recover from my episodes of PE, whereas in the few instances where I noticed slight thoracic filling in my deep target dives (which were under favorable diving circumstances where I avoided getting cold and otherwise avoided my PE risk factors) I recovered in less than 30 minutes. In these cases the raspy breathing would resolve seemingly completely within minutes and I wouldn't feel crappy whatsoever, just as is the case for deep freedivers who experience thoracic filling (as per Kirk, regarding him, Martin and Mandy). I've believed that PE and thoracic filling share the exact same mechanism, so why should the fluid remain in my lungs so much longer in my incidents of PE compared to those of my thoracic filling? Obviously something different is occurring in each situation...

I don't know if it is relevant, but what I think are pretty extreme reverse pack negatives in a 4 m pool feel about the same as 35 m cw full lung. Seems like this should be equivalent to much greater depth.

Your perception of lung compression seems quite skewed. Others have already done the math...It's easily possible to simulate well over 60m of depth in a 3m pool with extreme reverse packing. Maybe your skewed perception is what is getting you in trouble!
 
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They certainly originate in the throat area...

Sort of unrelated, but this reminded me of your previous mention of noticing a tickling sensation in the back of your throat when you might be nearing the onset of lung squeeze... I wanted to mention something about this.

I thought it might be worthwhile to distinguish between "true" lung squeeze, in which alveoli are ruptured, and "trachea squeeze", where only the trachea experiences trauma...both of which may result in an identical symptom: coughing or spitting up blood. It has been mentioned that trachea squeeze may be mistaken for lung squeeze in many cases.

I would expect for these two injuries to differ in the following fundamental ways:

- Lung squeeze would be accompanied by a significant feeling of fatigue, breathlessness, etc., afterward, whereas trachea squeeze would not.
The many symptoms of lung squeeze and PE that have been mentioned are due to the significant loss of gas exchange capability that results from having fluid in the lungs coating the alveolar membranes. As far as I know, gas exchange does not occur in the trachea, so trauma to it should not affect gas exchange capability (unless blood from the trachea leaks down into the alveolar spaces...?). Such individuals would cough up blood, but not otherwise feel crappy afterward as victims of lung squeeze do.

- The sensation of tickling in the back of the throat is possibly a premonition specific to trachea squeeze, whereas no such feeling would be noticed prior to lung squeeze
(since tracheal trauma is not involved in lung squeeze). The approaching onset of lung squeeze, conversely, is almost unnoticeable as far as internal sensations are concerned; we do not have sensory receptors inside the lungs that convey such sensations. We did mention, though, that pressure contractions may be a forewarning of lung squeeze.

Tracheal squeeze occurs under the exact same circumstances as lung squeeze...When under tremendous negative pressure. Tracheal trauma may result from improper posture while descending (head tilted back too much), or an abrupt movement of the head backward when deep in a dive, such as during the turn at the bottom. As air in the lungs becomes compressed during a dive, the trachea, too, loses air volume. The cartilaginous rings of the trachea prevent its collapse in the lateral axis, so the only way its volume can be reduced is by shortening it in the longitudinal axis (imagine an accordion...). This is why we are much more comfortable, or why it is necessary, to tuck the head down when diving deep. If one fails to protect the trachea when at depth, by allowing too much tension to develop in it through tilting the head back too much, tracheal trauma may result.

I don't know what the recovery time is for a tracheal squeeze, but it may be of no consequence to breathholding or diving if it doesn't affect gas exchange capability.
 
I came late to this thread...well..in fact I've been far from deeperblue a lot.
Pulmonary oedema of immersion is a problem, in my opinion, of pressure gradients. The most important pressures are: Pulmonary capillary, Interstitial and alveolar (or airway pressure).
If we develop a high pressure gradient there is going to be movement of fluid from one space to another.
This is a translation from my blog, where I discuss my problem:
Lung Barotrauma: In the last immersions that I made below -40 meters in constant weight, almost always, had haemoptysis (to cough blood) at the end of the immersion and in some occasions it was associated to dyspnea (difficulty to breathe); in fact in some immersions between -30 and -35 meters it also happened. The way I equalise is a mixture of BTV and Frenzel-Fattah techniques, the way to fill the mouth is by creating negative pressure with the tongue (and therefore negative pressure in the airway) this increases the gradient of pressure between the pulmonary capillaries and alveoli, making those prone to flooding. For that reason I changed the way to fill the mouth, now I use the diaphragmatic compression that although a little bit difficult, creates positive pressure on the airway and avoids the previous problems. The other part is the flexibility of the thorax, when the lungs are compressed in a rigid thorax, it causes a high negative intra-pleural pressure and thus it increases the pressure gradient and the risk of barotrauma. Therefore thorax stretching is a fundamental piece of the training, like the efficiency of diaphragmatic contraction
I think the main contributors to pulmonary oedema of immersion are:
1-Pulmonary hypertension: This is due to volume of blood in the pulmonary system, and vascular resistance. The last one increases with very high or very low alveolar volumes at the beginning of immersion. FRC is the best option to avoid high pulmonary pressure among others.

2-Negative Interstitial pressure: This is transmitted from negative pleural pressure. The biggest problem here is strong contractions and ribcage stiffness.

3-Negative airway pressure: This comes from tongue mouth filling. Specially reverse packing.
 
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