-
Welcome to the DeeperBlue.com Forums, the largest online community dedicated to Freediving, Scuba Diving and Spearfishing. To gain full access to the DeeperBlue.com Forums you must register for a free account. As a registered member you will be able to:
- Join over 44,280+ fellow diving enthusiasts from around the world on this forum
- Participate in and browse from over 516,210+ posts.
- Communicate privately with other divers from around the world.
- Post your own photos or view from 7,441+ user submitted images.
- All this and much more...
You can gain access to all this absolutely free when you register for an account, so sign up today!
Is bigger muscle mass an advantage or disadvantage to breathe holding?
- Thread starterbengreen
- Start date
Thread Status: Hello
, There was no answer in this thread for more than 60 days.
It can take a long time to get an up-to-date response or contact with relevant users.
It can take a long time to get an up-to-date response or contact with relevant users.
I don't know but if I can use it as a reason for not being more muscular, I'll take it
Seriously though, like with any sport or activity, look at the body types of the people at the top and take it from there. If you really need to know I would contact a research facility in one of the universities that deal with such research, I think Portsmouth university researches such things but I may be wrong.
Seriously though, like with any sport or activity, look at the body types of the people at the top and take it from there. If you really need to know I would contact a research facility in one of the universities that deal with such research, I think Portsmouth university researches such things but I may be wrong.I like your question and logic. My current views are:
Yes more blood and muscles can help provided the diver has enough skill to use them efficiently and relax them completely. Therefore it's likely a beginner will experience lesser breath-holds because he's not learned to deeply relax all his muscle mass.
I see a trend of WR level record divers working out and gaining more muscle mass before their attempts.
In regard to dynamics and constant weight I believe it's good to have more/enough muscle mass in order to have and earlier and stronger manifestation of vascular constriction. This I suspect is because bigger muscles are more remote from the arteries, and therefor fall quicker under the threshold of anaerobe to anaerobe. In other words your body goes into anaerobe mode quicker.
My instructor coach said 'it depends on the technique of diver' he said to also think of the buffer size and the lung/mass ratio.
Yes more blood and muscles can help provided the diver has enough skill to use them efficiently and relax them completely. Therefore it's likely a beginner will experience lesser breath-holds because he's not learned to deeply relax all his muscle mass.
I see a trend of WR level record divers working out and gaining more muscle mass before their attempts.
In regard to dynamics and constant weight I believe it's good to have more/enough muscle mass in order to have and earlier and stronger manifestation of vascular constriction. This I suspect is because bigger muscles are more remote from the arteries, and therefor fall quicker under the threshold of anaerobe to anaerobe. In other words your body goes into anaerobe mode quicker.
My instructor coach said 'it depends on the technique of diver' he said to also think of the buffer size and the lung/mass ratio.
Yo Divebike,
No need to diminish yourself here, it's an excellent question, on that I still kind of have, and do want more detail and comprehension of.
I think the question is answerable, but it is a challenging one to do so implicitly. However people like Stig, Alexey, Goran, Herbert, Patrick and many others have all answered implicitly by demonstrating they build up muscle mass for their WR record attempts.
The 'is the pope a catholic' question is not important to me, I'm indifferent to that answer. To your question I'm not, because I think it's an important question that opens the door up to higher levels of understanding and performance.
Do not despair for the lack of replies either, I rather have fewer replies and a few quality ones, because I'm hear to share ideas and learn, I'm not in a popularity contest.
No need to diminish yourself here, it's an excellent question, on that I still kind of have, and do want more detail and comprehension of.
I think the question is answerable, but it is a challenging one to do so implicitly. However people like Stig, Alexey, Goran, Herbert, Patrick and many others have all answered implicitly by demonstrating they build up muscle mass for their WR record attempts.
The 'is the pope a catholic' question is not important to me, I'm indifferent to that answer. To your question I'm not, because I think it's an important question that opens the door up to higher levels of understanding and performance.
Do not despair for the lack of replies either, I rather have fewer replies and a few quality ones, because I'm hear to share ideas and learn, I'm not in a popularity contest.
Last edited:
Breath hold, relaxation and baseline athletic conditioning first.
Adding some additional muscle beyond that point might technically help... But lactic tolerance and muscle conditioning UNDER APNEA is really what counts.
Adding some additional muscle beyond that point might technically help... But lactic tolerance and muscle conditioning UNDER APNEA is really what counts.
Hi Bengreen. A very interesting subject, and you've been lucky in that most of the guidance you've received from the Forum so far has been pretty solid. Just to add to what's been submitted thus far. Yes, muscle is more biologically active than almost all other tissue. Thus, and all other factors being equal, more muscle = higher O2 consumption and CO2 build-up. So it follows that there will be, for each athlete, an optimal overall RATIO of muscle tissue to total body mass that will define one aspect of their performance potential. But this is only part of the story and while I don't have the technical knowledge to be ultra specific, here are some considerations you might wish to look into more deeply:
1. One of the more curious and unique aspects of apnea is that there doesn't (yet) seem to be a coherent, linear relationship between innate physiological attributes ('talent') and training/conditioning. Ask around and you'll see: few other sports offer such divergent opinions on how to train. It seems to be very personal from athlete to athlete, but most agree on one thing: in apnea ultimate performance potential is heavily weighed towards the mental - and even emotional - component. Big lungs? Some can go very deep, some can't. No muscles? Branko Petrovic is super lean and hold his breath for 12mins but this has not yet translated to depth. Muscular? Big guys like Patric Musimu, Antero Joki (and even Miguel Lozano) answer that question. One of Umberto Pelizzari's Apnea Academy instructor, Tadej Cernos, is literally built like a comic book superhero and he's diving very deep. Age? At age 54 Natalia Molchanova beat her son Aleksei in dynamic competition recently! No, muscle mass is just one factor and it is probably not even one of the most important ones.
2. What is more interesting is innate muscle TYPE - ie the ratio between 'fast-twitch' muscle, which performs under anaerobic conditions (sprinters, weight lifters), and slow-twitch muscle mass (endurance athletes). Much of the weight training elite apneists do is to stimulate their musculature not only for 'power' - though power is important in depth disciplines - but rather to condition it for anaerobic (glycogen-consuming) performance under extreme anaerobic conditions. Again, it is a trade-off that each athlete must discover for themselves through trial and error.
3. Another interesting consideration seems to be the relative size of the spleen and it's (again relative %) ability to contract under hypoxic stress. There is evidence suggesting that this could be as important as lung volume.
4. Most importantly, Apneaaddict has touched on the key issue: there are many factors to work on long before muscle mass becomes a limiting issue. Breathing techniques and the ability to relax mentally and physically have proven time and time again that they are the foundation of apnea training and performance - the 'base of the pyramid' if you will (along with safety). My own opinion is that training, conditioning and technique form the middle, and only when all these have been satisfied do you get to the top of the pyramid where innate 'talent'/genetics starts to play a more significant and/or decisive role.
To conclude finally: make a decision what your personal apnea goals are and work towards them in the knowledge that a good attitude and discipline can get you to very interesting performance levels - long before muscle (or the lack of it) limits your progress. Last advice: go to Will Trubridge's web site and click the 'writings' link. He has dealt with these aspects very eloquently.
Cheers
Thanks for the replies, guess bottom line is that unless you are a pro freediver more or less muscle mass doesn't really make much of a difference. Reason why I brought this up in the first place is because I am a muscular guy and was wondering what effect my weight training might have on apnea. Guess I shouldn't worry about it. ...
Hey Ben,
you caught me with one foot out the office so a quick reply: I'm a pretty muscular guy too - genetically - though i have combined apnea with proper high-intensity strength training (HIT) in recent times. Personally I've found 2 things of interest: first, that apnea sessions shortly after intense workouts SEEM to reduce the recovery time (there is some, largely anecdotal, evidence to support this and it is being studied) and secondly: when I have gone through intensive apnea training is has had the effect of reducing muscle size and mass - something that makes perfect sense if you think about it; by constantly starving your muscles of oxygen you are sending a signal to your DNA that it is unwanted 'ballast', so it adapts by leaning you out. I haven;t seen any significant drop in power, just mass. But as I alluded to before: 'results may vary'! Enjoy
A few peripheral things to consider when freediving/spearing:
a. Big, broad, muscular shoulders will likelycreate more frontal hydrodynamic drag, both when diving down and when coming up. (Ditto a large belly/moobs/boobs)
b. muscle sinks, fat floats - being lean & muscular will help you sink quickly but you'll work harder to come up. (But if using a wetsuit and appropriate compensating weights, not a consideration.)
c. Are the muscles developed evenly or just in certain areas? Are those areas used when diving? Are the muscles firm/toned/hard or soft/ loose, tight or relaxed?
d. Is the muscle mass in balance with the rest of the owner (e.g.size, lung capacity, VO2 max., ...)?
I suspect technique and the ability to relax is more important (e.g. the story of the mother beating the child in competition, above).
a. Big, broad, muscular shoulders will likelycreate more frontal hydrodynamic drag, both when diving down and when coming up. (Ditto a large belly/moobs/boobs)
b. muscle sinks, fat floats - being lean & muscular will help you sink quickly but you'll work harder to come up. (But if using a wetsuit and appropriate compensating weights, not a consideration.)
c. Are the muscles developed evenly or just in certain areas? Are those areas used when diving? Are the muscles firm/toned/hard or soft/ loose, tight or relaxed?
d. Is the muscle mass in balance with the rest of the owner (e.g.size, lung capacity, VO2 max., ...)?
I suspect technique and the ability to relax is more important (e.g. the story of the mother beating the child in competition, above).
A damn good question and one that I ask myself from time to time, a bit of background.
I am 170 Kilos and 196 cm without socks, I am heavily (gym) muscled but still (ahem) a gentleman of size, even with 14 kilos of lead on the belt and t-shirt and boxers I still generate enough positive buoyancy to rise to the surface (without the lead I tend to cork up)
So here are my two cents...
Broad shoulders and a big belly don´t seem to affect hydrodynamics at all
In the evening after diving my normally high blood pressure is in the green.
Also I have the same body feeling as after a high intensity workout, (body feeling, is that a concept?)
Having a thick "bioprane" suit lets me stay in cold water in a t-shirt much longer than most scuba´s in thermals.
I am 170 Kilos and 196 cm without socks, I am heavily (gym) muscled but still (ahem) a gentleman of size, even with 14 kilos of lead on the belt and t-shirt and boxers I still generate enough positive buoyancy to rise to the surface (without the lead I tend to cork up)
So here are my two cents...
Broad shoulders and a big belly don´t seem to affect hydrodynamics at all
In the evening after diving my normally high blood pressure is in the green.
Also I have the same body feeling as after a high intensity workout, (body feeling, is that a concept?)
Having a thick "bioprane" suit lets me stay in cold water in a t-shirt much longer than most scuba´s in thermals.
Nice of you grand slam to chime in, and expand the question a bit by including the bodyfat variable. How long have you been freediving? What is you lungcapacity and what is your vital capacity? How does your static compare to your dynamics and cwt?
As you may know the past years athletes are using thinner suits and less or no weights for their deep dives. what is your bodyfat percentage and what temperatures water do you think you can perform pb cwt dive?
I realise it may be a lot personal info so please only answer what you feel comfortable with.
Its very cool to hear freediving has such beneficial effects on you health! Do you know if we can attach weightloss as one of the beneficial things of freediving?
And finally, what kind of freediving do you like most?
I feel this is my personal best in asking the most questions in 1post
thanks for chiming in!
As you may know the past years athletes are using thinner suits and less or no weights for their deep dives. what is your bodyfat percentage and what temperatures water do you think you can perform pb cwt dive?
I realise it may be a lot personal info so please only answer what you feel comfortable with.
Its very cool to hear freediving has such beneficial effects on you health! Do you know if we can attach weightloss as one of the beneficial things of freediving?
And finally, what kind of freediving do you like most?
I feel this is my personal best in asking the most questions in 1post
thanks for chiming in!
I was ill for a very long time with chronic sleep apnea until I started to use a CPAP device, in the runup to the treatment I totally lost control of my weight and maxed out at 238 kilos.
I don't know if you have a concept of sleep apnea but basically each and every night your body is fighting for your very life, daytime hallucinations are part of the fun and so are the voices in your head, you are practically dreaming and only semi awake during the day, from what I now know I am convinced that the prophets of yore and those hearing the voice of god/devil/angles/demons etc. have suffered from sleep apnea.
Nights were the worst, contractions to the point of vomiting and getting the contents of your stomach into your lungs, you are in agony as your lungs get seared from the acid and you start to drown in your own vomit.
Nasty stuff.
Since using a CPAP and therefor having the energy to go to the gym and go hiking things are under control and weight has dropped, however because I gained muscle and shrank fat cells my weight equalized and at 180 Kilos I hit a barrier. I have been free diving now for a year and recently my friends have confirmed that I am again loosing weight, I see it in new cloths and in the holes I make in my belt, so evidently something is working in my favor. At my last weigh in I was pleased to see the scales at 162 Kilos.
Also a hereditary high blood pressure is getting lower and although I still take medicine the high spikes are no longer as high.
So yes If you ask me then in combination with other factors I would stand behind my claim that free diving can be a healthy sport as long as your stick to the first law of free diving:
"you go down, you come up" keep that ratio at 1:1 and things are fine.
I started out at under 5 meters and now routinely get to 20 meters and stay under for around a minute without any contractions or feeling of discomfort. I would also claim that having powerful shoulders and arms help enormously in getting down, combine legwork with two or three powerful arm strokes and I am at 10 meters in a few seconds, thanks to the aforementioned "bioprane" I have been in the water at 14° for around two hours, much to the amazement of thermo suited "colleges" from the other faculty.
As to diving I tend to dive where the scuba divers hang out and here on Malta my favorite dives are on the HMS Maori, then to the Madonna at Ċirkewwa and the top of the P29.
But also the blue hole on Gozo.
Great fun.
I don't know if you have a concept of sleep apnea but basically each and every night your body is fighting for your very life, daytime hallucinations are part of the fun and so are the voices in your head, you are practically dreaming and only semi awake during the day, from what I now know I am convinced that the prophets of yore and those hearing the voice of god/devil/angles/demons etc. have suffered from sleep apnea.
Nights were the worst, contractions to the point of vomiting and getting the contents of your stomach into your lungs, you are in agony as your lungs get seared from the acid and you start to drown in your own vomit.
Nasty stuff.
Since using a CPAP and therefor having the energy to go to the gym and go hiking things are under control and weight has dropped, however because I gained muscle and shrank fat cells my weight equalized and at 180 Kilos I hit a barrier. I have been free diving now for a year and recently my friends have confirmed that I am again loosing weight, I see it in new cloths and in the holes I make in my belt, so evidently something is working in my favor. At my last weigh in I was pleased to see the scales at 162 Kilos.
Also a hereditary high blood pressure is getting lower and although I still take medicine the high spikes are no longer as high.
So yes If you ask me then in combination with other factors I would stand behind my claim that free diving can be a healthy sport as long as your stick to the first law of free diving:
"you go down, you come up" keep that ratio at 1:1 and things are fine.
I started out at under 5 meters and now routinely get to 20 meters and stay under for around a minute without any contractions or feeling of discomfort. I would also claim that having powerful shoulders and arms help enormously in getting down, combine legwork with two or three powerful arm strokes and I am at 10 meters in a few seconds, thanks to the aforementioned "bioprane" I have been in the water at 14° for around two hours, much to the amazement of thermo suited "colleges" from the other faculty.
As to diving I tend to dive where the scuba divers hang out and here on Malta my favorite dives are on the HMS Maori, then to the Madonna at Ċirkewwa and the top of the P29.
But also the blue hole on Gozo.
Great fun.
Wow what a story!
Sounds like you've had many near death experiences!
I know aso two other freedivers who have sleepapnea, but your story sounds the most extreme.
I'm glad the machine is helping, is there any chance you cure from the sleepapnea?
I think if you eat traditional home made food right after exercise and enough rest you'll get to a healthy weight and bloodpressure soon. I love yourhealthy freediving ratio
In Germany I've seen the most gracious diving to 40m by a bioprene rich man that had a walrus like moustage, an example of a freediver.
btw if you swing those heavy long legs out of the water you can easily compensate for the buoyancy. 2h in 14c water wow. well you can do competitions withou neoprene, maybe only a tight swimsuit for less drag. I agree that a big shape does not nessesarily mean more resistance. whales, dolphins are not stickfigures either!
Sounds like you've had many near death experiences!
I know aso two other freedivers who have sleepapnea, but your story sounds the most extreme.
I'm glad the machine is helping, is there any chance you cure from the sleepapnea?
I think if you eat traditional home made food right after exercise and enough rest you'll get to a healthy weight and bloodpressure soon. I love yourhealthy freediving ratio
In Germany I've seen the most gracious diving to 40m by a bioprene rich man that had a walrus like moustage, an example of a freediver.
btw if you swing those heavy long legs out of the water you can easily compensate for the buoyancy. 2h in 14c water wow. well you can do competitions withou neoprene, maybe only a tight swimsuit for less drag. I agree that a big shape does not nessesarily mean more resistance. whales, dolphins are not stickfigures either!
I am thrilled to see this particular question get the answers it deserves (having missed the original post). As a large, muscular guy...I started a really serious "cutting" regimen about three years ago. I started at 235 lbs, began running and swimming for distance every day, changed my eating habits, etc.; all in order to improved my performance in pool disciplines. By the end of the first year, I had dropped 30 pounds, was running full marathons, swimming 3 miles and had increased my Static by about 2 minutes (from 5:00 to 7:00 min), and my DNF by about 75m. So, one thing leads to another, I get a little lazy and tired of the discipline, and gain 15 pounds back...cut my work outs down to 3 days a week, etc. I STILL had almost the same results in my Apnea training, with a slight decline over the next year. So, there seems to be, for me, a direct correlation to conditioning and performance, and a very gradual decline gradient. Now, I liked the way I looked and felt as a 200 pound marathoner...but I don't miss the pain, the time, the dedication to stay in that level of conditioning. I have found much more effect on my hold times caused by whether I ate in the last 3-4 hours, time of day, amount of sleep, hydration levels,etc. than from the gain or loss of muscle mass.