Is it necessary to do a spearfishing course?

[Mr. X]

I have some fins but will be needing to invest in a wetsuit that suitable for UK waters, I've read 5 or maybe 7 mm if I'm diving colder months should be about right?

5mm for a proper spearo wetsuit, with hood, socks and gloves, is warm enough for me and most others, year round. In practice, the weather in February and March is usually too awful to dive and there aren't many fish around in January, February and March. I've had good bass in early November. Bass are not unheard of late in March but are not the norm.

If you particularly feel the cold, you might consider a thicker wetsuit but you'd then need to carry more lead. E.g. if you are small, skinny, have low body fat or have a low metabolism or come from warmer climes (I was surprised to see YouTube spearo Dan Man wears a 7mm wetsuit in UK but he is from Oz so perhaps used to warmer conditions). Also, if you plan to dive up north s lot, Scotland for example, you might consider a thicker suit but not essential.

Fyi I have a 5mm suit and a 5.5mm suit. Never felt the need for anything thicker but I don't tend to feel the cold as much as some.

 

[Bill McIntyre]

But looking at social media I get the impression that spearfishing isn't about bringing food to the table anymore, but about that picture where you hold a huge AJ.
I dive alone and my logical brain says not to push it and to keep an extra large safety margin. Training I do on land by apnea walking; not to push myself to more minutes of breath hold, but to calibrate my limits. But I think what keeps me safe the most is that I'm not participating on social media. I have no one to impress.

I think its gone beyond a photo of a big fish. For many its a photo of your watch showing how deep you were and how long your bottom time was when you shot the fish. I lost a Facebook friend for commenting on that issue. When he would tell about shooting a fish, he would show a photo of his watch. I made a snide comment that I recalled the good old days when we showed photos of our fish rather than photos of our watches, and he got upset and said something like "some of us our proud of our freediving skills too."

While I think freediviing courses are valuable (even though I've never had one and am unlikely to do so at age 81), I think an unfortunate byproduct of the courses is that many graduates come out thinking its all about how deep you can go and shoot a fish rather than just shooting a fish with as little risk as possible.

 

[Leander]

Fyi I have a 5mm suit and a 5.5mm suit. Never felt the need for anything thicker but I don't tend to feel the cold as much as some.

I use a 3mm in Crete, Greece all year round. Winter sea temperature here is about 15°C, which I guess can be compared to UK summer. Wouldn't want to go any thicker. I have low bodyfat and am comfortable in either hot or cold climates, but being too hot in something like a wetsuit or a sleeping bag or the like I find horrible. It gives me those restless legs.

I think its gone beyond a photo of a big fish. For many its a photo of your watch showing how deep you were and how long your bottom time was when you shot the fish.

It will pass. The skateboarders turned bmxers then snowboarders then surfers and now they jumped the freediving bandwagon. Three years from now they are all following another fad.

 

[Mr. X]

Re. Training, I've been quite impressed by what I've heard about Florida Freediver stage 1, weekend course. Which includes a pool session. It sounds very focused, relevant and fun. Don't know how affordable it is. But if I lived nearby, and it was affordable, I'd probably take it.

It looks like Adreno in Adelaide do various seminars for spearos too.

I think spearfishing.co.uk started doing training courses in Cornwall too.

I suspect not all courses are equal. So figure out what you want, need and expect and try to make sure you find what suits you before plunking your hard earned money, or I'll gotten gains, down.

Alternatively there are spearfishing clubs in the UK, under the BSA. The 3 that spring to mind are the London International Club, Sussex and Exeter. There may be others.

I think it depends on the person, their situation and their background too.

 

[Bill McIntyre]

Agreed - however, most common issues in spearfishing are 1) pushing yourself too far and having a blackout 2) overweighting and being negatively buoyant above 10m

Since I'm already the bad guy in this discussion, I want to talk about that rigid rule that we must be weighted neutral at 10 meters (33 feet here in the colonies).

As near as I can tell, that rule was invented by FII for people diving deep in warm water in Florida. If you are going to hunt at 100 feet, its a great rule. But I tend to hunt at around 20 feet in kelp beds because that is the most productive depth, even though most of the coastal kelp beds are 50 to 60 feet deep. A friend who gets a lot more white sea bass than I do weights neutral at 15 feet, and wonders how I even get off the surface without making noise and scaring fish. Unlike people going deep in Florida, in California we tend to swim horizontally through the kelp. If I were weighted to be neutral at 33 feet, I'd be like a cork at 20 feet, struggling to keep from drifting up.

So I got into a discussion with some local FII instructors on a SoCal FB group, and they were adamant about that 10 meters thing. They told me that if I wore more weight so that I was neutral at 20 feet, the danger was that if I blacked out after surfacing and did a passive exhale, then I would sink unless someone was right there to save me. So I tested it. I did a passive exhale on the surface and still floated. So then I did a forced exhale and still floated. So I told this guy that I didn't sink even with a forced exhale, and his reply was that was a dummy and it was supposed to be a passive exhale. This was an instructor, and apparently he didn't understand the rule he was spouting. If I don't sink with a forced exhale, I'm sure as hell not going to sink with a passive exhale. I may not have taken his course, but I did spend a month in a US Navy diving school at Pearl Harbor and I have a basic understanding of gas and buoyancy.

I asked why his rule didn't seem to apply to me. Why could I be weighted neutral at 20 feet instead of 33 feet and still float after exhaling on the surface. He couldn't tell me. It took another diver in the discussion, one who had never taken a course, to supply the obvious answer. In Florida they wear thinner wet suits or no wet suit at all. When I was a kid diving in Florida wet suits had not been invented and we dove in trunks in the summer and stayed out of the water in the winter. The water is colder in California and we wear thicker wetsuits. A thicker wetsuits compresses and expands more with changes in depth. Coming up from a neutral depth of 20 feet, it expands more than enough to make me buoyant on the surface even with an exhale.

This instructor kid I was talking too knew nothing about spearfishing. All he knew was going up and down lines and he didn't even understand the rules he taught. This exchange undermined my confidence in freedive courses, and in particular made me doubt that a course taught by him would be good preparation for spearfishing in California.

PS- I certainly agree that one of the main reasons for deaths is pushing your limits, but isn't that what they teach you to do in freedive courses?


Sorry for the long sermon, but I had to get it off my chest.

 

[alex95]

5mm for a proper spearo wetsuit, with hood, socks and gloves, is warm enough for me and most others, year round. In practice, the weather in February and March is usually too awful to dive and there aren't many fish around in January, February and March. I've had good bass in early November. Bass are not unheard of late in March but are not the norm.

If you particularly feel the cold, you might consider a thicker wetsuit but you'd then need to carry more lead. E.g. if you are small, skinny, have low body fat or have a low metabolism or come from warmer climes (I was surprised to see YouTube spearo Dan Man wears a 7mm wetsuit in UK but he is from Oz so perhaps used to warmer conditions). Also, if you plan to dive up north s lot, Scotland for example, you might consider a thicker suit but not essential.

Fyi I have a 5mm suit and a 5.5mm suit. Never felt the need for anything thicker but I don't tend to feel the cold as much as some.

Great thanks I'm probably just gonna go with a 5mm, gonna shop around and hope I can find one for a decent price. Funny you mention Dan, I was just binge watching his videos last night!

 

[Stephan Whelan]

Since I'm already the bad guy in this discussion, I want to talk about that rigid rule that we must be weighted neutral at 10 meters (33 feet here in the colonies).

As near as I can tell, that rule was invented by FII for people diving deep in warm water in Florida. If you are going to hunt at 100 feet, its a great rule. But I tend to hunt at around 20 feet in kelp beds because that is the most productive depth, even though most of the coastal kelp beds are 50 to 60 feet deep. A friend who gets a lot more white sea bass than I do weights neutral at 15 feet, and wonders how I even get off the surface without making noise and scaring fish. Unlike people going deep in Florida, in California we tend to swim horizontally through the kelp. If I were weighted to be neutral at 33 feet, I'd be like a cork at 20 feet, struggling to keep from drifting up.

So I got into a discussion with some local FII instructors on a SoCal FB group, and they were adamant about that 10 meters thing. They told me that if I wore more weight so that I was neutral at 20 feet, the danger was that if I blacked out after surfacing and did a passive exhale, then I would sink unless someone was right there to save me. So I tested it. I did a passive exhale on the surface and still floated. So then I did a forced exhale and still floated. So I told this guy that I didn't sink even with a forced exhale, and his reply was that was a dummy and it was supposed to be a passive exhale. This was an instructor, and apparently he didn't understand the rule he was spouting. If I don't sink with a forced exhale, I'm sure as hell not going to sink with a passive exhale. I may not have taken his course, but I did spend a month in a US Navy diving school at Pearl Harbor and I have a basic understanding of gas and buoyancy.

I asked why his rule didn't seem to apply to me. Why could I be weighted neutral at 20 feet instead of 33 feet and still float after exhaling on the surface. He couldn't tell me. It took another diver in the discussion, one who had never taken a course, to supply the obvious answer. In Florida they wear thinner wet suits or no wet suit at all. When I was a kid diving in Florida wet suits had not been invented and we dove in trunks in the summer and stayed out of the water in the winter. The water is colder in California and we wear thicker wetsuits. A thicker wetsuits compresses and expands more with changes in depth. Coming up from a neutral depth of 20 feet, it expands more than enough to make me buoyant on the surface even with an exhale.

This instructor kid I was talking too knew nothing about spearfishing. All he knew was going up and down lines and he didn't even understand the rules he taught. This exchange undermined my confidence in freedive courses, and in particular made me doubt that a course taught by him would be good preparation for spearfishing in California.

Sorry for the long sermon, but I had to get it off my chest.

You not the bad guy buddy in the thread - it’s a discussion the important thing is to have a debate,

My perception on the 10m/33ft rule - It’s basically to cover everyone as a worst case scenario. You seem to be one of the lucky ones that can be weighted heavier and it not to effect you. The problem with having multiple iterations of the rule is trying to remember which one applies to you in what scenario. It’s the same as speed limits - they are there to protect as many people as possible. If it’s there for safety why not obey it? The difficulty comes when you’ve been doing something all your life and then some organisation comes along and tells you otherwise.

The rule actually came from the freediving world and was developed by either PFI or AIDA. It is geared towards recreational freedivers but should apply to spearos.

 

[Mr. X]

Bill's right. I quite often spear in just 3 - 15' of water (and I know that many others around the world do too*). If you want to stay on the bottom, doing aspetto/ agauchon/stalking, you need to carry more lead in shallow water.

*One chap on YouTube stood behind a reef and speared good fish as they swam over the reef in 1" of water, perhaps less. Probably still breathing through his snorkel.

 

[Bill McIntyre]

My perception on the 10m/33ft rule - It’s basically to cover everyone as a worst case scenario. You seem to be one of the lucky ones that can be weighted heavier and it not to effect you. The problem with having multiple iterations of the rule is trying to remember which one applies to you in what scenario. It’s the same as speed limits - they are there to protect as many people as possible. If it’s there for safety why not obey it? The difficulty comes when you’ve been doing something all your life and then some organisation comes along and tells you otherwise.

The rule actually came from the freediving world and was developed by either PFI or AIDA. It is geared towards recreational freedivers but should apply to spearos.

I don't think I'm one of the lucky ones. I bet most people wearing thick wet suits have the same experience.

As far as why not obey it because its there for safety goes- because it doesn't work unless you are willing to hunt very close to 33 feet all the time. A California spear fisherman will quickly learn that this may not work for him. Or maybe he's willing to hunt near 33 feet all the time. If so, that's fine. but if not, he should at least understand what's going on. Surely we should be able to think this stuff through rather than following rigid rules.

 

[Stephan Whelan]

I don't think I'm one of the lucky ones. I bet most people wearing thick wet suits have the same experience.

As far as why not obey it because its there for safety goes- because it doesn't work unless you are willing to hunt very close to 33 feet all the time. A California spear fisherman will quickly learn that this may not work for him. Or maybe he's willing to hunt near 33 feet all the time. If so, that's fine. but if not, he should at least understand what's going on. Surely we should be able to think this stuff through rather than following rigid rules.

Agreed.

To be honest the rule by itself won’t save you. You can blackout, be positively buoyant and still end up face down in water and drown. The key to safety is multiple factors but buddy diving is the primary thing that will help you.

 

[Leander]

My perception on the 10m/33ft rule - It’s basically to cover everyone as a worst case scenario. You seem to be one of the lucky ones that can be weighted heavier and it not to effect you. The problem with having multiple iterations of the rule is trying to remember which one applies to you in what scenario.

This is exactly why I prefer to teach myself. If I want to find out how much weight I need, I first need to understand -why- I need added weight. It's then immediately clear that variations in suit thickness, body fat, water salinity, etc are part of the equation. And because I then know why it works in a certain way I can make endless variations depeding on the situation.

Often I read the rule: start with 10% of the body weight. That would be 6.5kg for me. I would never come up from my first dive!
*Why* 10%? Why trimmed at -10m? Why a certain size gun? Why long fins? I can go on for ages with this list. The answers on the internet (which includes the course-pdfs of various schools) parrot the same thing as if they are universal rules. Nowhere they talk about why, at least not the level of 'why' you need to truly understand something.

There are so many and such an extreme variations in people, their gear, places, weather, situations, etc. that teaching a one-rule-fits-all is just plain wrong. But teaching in a way that people learn the why's behind it takes [a lot] more time, so the courses would become too expensive and no one would buy... That is speculation of course, but I feel like I'm not far from the truth here.

The whole rant of 'why' can be applied to a lot more than freediving courses. Watch the news and for every topic try to ask three 'why's. It's something we lost in this dumbed down playmobil world.

 

[Stephan Whelan]

This is exactly why I prefer to teach myself. If I want to find out how much weight I need, I first need to understand -why- I need added weight. It's then immediately clear that variations in suit thickness, body fat, water salinity, etc are part of the equation. And because I then know why it works in a certain way I can make endless variations depeding on the situation.

Often I read the rule: start with 10% of the body weight. That would be 6.5kg for me. I would never come up from my first dive!
*Why* 10%? Why trimmed at -10m? Why a certain size gun? Why long fins? I can go on for ages with this list. The answers on the internet (which includes the course-pdfs of various schools) parrot the same thing as if they are universal rules. Nowhere they talk about why, at least not the level of 'why' you need to truly understand something.

There are so many and such an extreme variations in people, their gear, places, weather, situations, etc. that teaching a one-rule-fits-all is just plain wrong. But teaching in a way that people learn the why's behind it takes [a lot] more time, so the courses would become too expensive and no one would buy... That is speculation of course, but I feel like I'm not far from the truth here.

The whole rant of 'why' can be applied to a lot more than freediving courses. Watch the news and for every topic try to ask three 'why's. It's something we lost in this dumbed down playmobil world.

Actually I disagree

I'm encouraged to hear that it sounds like a you're taking the sensible, educated route into figure out what to do. Most people unfortunately don't do that - the current society is too fast, too quick and cut corners. Have a simple rule that covers everyone safely as a starting point. If you can prove you are capable of playing with the Playmobil without trying to swallow them and choke, then you get to move up to something more advanced.

Look lots of deaths in the freediving and spearfishing world is something we need to avoid. Spearfishing already has a tough reputation because it involves killing and guns (yes we all know the right arguments to have on this but to the general public they think everyone walks into the water with a machine gun or RPG). We should be doing what we can to protect divers of all abilities.

Is a 10/33 rule perfect - no. Is it annoying if you want to dive and hunt shallow - yes. Does it protect you totally - no. Is it a good idea and simple to follow - yes. No single thing is going to protect you but at least look to minimize your risk.

Breathold diving is dangerous - doing it alone is going to kill you at some point.

 

[Mr. X]

...Funny you mention Dan, I was just binge watching his videos last night!

I did too, over lockdown. Enjoying Joe PK in Devon/Cornwall now too and several others worldwide.

I was quite taken by videos from a chap in the Canaries can't recall his name. Might be more than 1 person. [Dawid PescaSubmarina possibly]He caught some really big fish, mainly from the shore. Very exciting to watch. It also makes quite an impression when you see somebody hauling 2 very big fish, far bigger than his float, onto to the rock ledge shore line. Impressive.

But today I drove cross country - no stops - to pick up my son, who we hadn't seen since February

 

[Leander]

Breathold diving is dangerous - doing it alone is going to kill you at some point.

Not diving might actually kill me faster. But the sea and her therapeutic effect is a whole different topic.

the general public they think everyone walks into the water with a machine gun or RPG

Which is why it's gaining such momentum on social media. And since no one is impressed when you shoot a bream with a bazooka they all dive deep for the big grouper, which is already labeled as endangered. Both the safety and ecologic margins are traded for youtube views.

 

[DivingNomad]

"Len Jones's Guide to Spearfishing"

This one?

www.amazon.com/Len-Jones-Guide-Spearfishing-Zealand/dp/0473082519/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=Len+Jone's+Guide+To+Spearfishing&qid=1595132821&s=books&sr=1-1

 

[Scott Valentine]

I hate to act like an old fart, but I am. I am pretty sure spearfishing courses never existed until very recently. Thousands of people learned to spearfish on their own, or preferable with a buddy who started a few months before they did. I managed to learn in the early 1950s and there were not even scuba courses them, much less freedive or spearfishing courses. Here in Southern California there are thousands of spearfishermen and they are learning without courses. In fact the only courses I've heard of are offered by Freedive instructors who offer to tailor their basic courses a bit more to the needs of spear fisherman rather than line diving. If you've taken a freedive course then you already know the important stuff about SWB, proper breathing, weighting, etc. You are way ahead of the average beginning spear here. Just take it easy and don't start with bluefin tuna. And I strongly recommend the book Blue Water Hunting snd Freediving by Terry Maas.

Agreed. I started at 12 with a homemade spear, and back in those days, the word freediving didn't exist.

 

[plongeur]

I think if you have to ask, then yes, you need to do a spearfishing course.

There is a relationship between want and need. When do you not need a course? Well, if you are well-read in the subject, and in the case of spearfishing, very comfortable in the water (swimming, SCUBA, etc.) then you don't need a course but may want one. A course, if done right, and that's another issue altogether, can get you to speed rapidly and save you from having to learn from uniformed mistakes.

Do you need a course to legally go out and spearfish? No.

Lastly, what is your mission? Let me point out that in almost all things it comes down to mission. Are you just wanting to enjoy the thrill of the hunt? If that is the case, then perhaps you want to take it slow and learn from your mistakes, take some extra time to get to that first kill and have the satisfaction of being self-taught. If you are after regular seafood on the dinner table, then a course will get you there quicker.

 

[Leander]

And that's the perfect answer to the question. Good one Plongeur.

 

[DiveHacker]

I think it is a great idea to get out there without a course. In fact, I think you may even be better off for it in the long run. Figuring stuff out for yourself in the shallows, being independent in the water, is worth more than a course as far as I am concerned. It seems trendy to me to tell people to "take a course". Almost like being vegan or something. Go spearfishing, enjoy it. Don't expect yourself to improve too quickly, which i suspect is the problem with the other fella asking about equalizing. Don't pressure yourself in any way, and you will be fine.

 

[Perro Bravo]

Hi guys,

I've been wanting to get into spearfishing for a while, I've already done a PADI freediving course a while ago and have been thinking about doing a spearfishing course. However, they all seem to be suspended for the foreseeable future due to coronavirus. I was wondering if a course is essential or if I'd be ok to just buy some beginner's equipment and get started? I also don't have anyone to go with, I live in Manchester, but would probably head out to Anglesey or somewhere in North Wales.
Also if anyone could recommend some decent cheapish equipment for a newbie that would be fab, I found a gun on decathlon for £45 but there's no reviews so I've no idea if it's any good or not.

Any help is very much appreciated!
Cheers,
Alex

Hi Alex,

Your question inspired me to my first post (a little late). For background, I've been diving since 1988, and teaching SCUBA for about 17 years. I guess that puts me in the "old-fart" category with Nomad.

You sound like you have a good safety ethic, and I'm hearing some really good advice and references from the responders. I teach a spearfishing class, but it is tailored more to my home environment here in South Carolina and probably wouldn't be the best fit for you. We are doing academics online now, and it seems to work well. I would recommend that you take a course local to where you will hunt, and find someone to hunt with who can show you the basics. I'd also recommend dealing with a local shop when looking for gear. The advice and support you get from local professionals will save you money in the long run compared to internet bargains.

I'll offer a few tips that I haven't seen posted yet:

Spearguns should be treated just like firearms, i.e. watch where your pointing it, know your target and what's behind it, etc. Add to that: Never charge a speargun out of the water, and discharge or unload it before it comes out of the water.

Mr. X gave good advice about the length of gun you might want. Consider the visibility where you will hunt. Shot distance should determine gun length. Shorter guns are easier to load, but won't reach out in clear water where fish keep their distance. There is nothing wrong with a pole spear for starters, and you'll learn a lot quickly.

Next, find a place to do some target practice. I rigged a foam board to shoot at in the local lake. Many beginners aim for the "center of mass" like a bullseye. Don't do that. Fish shot in the gut or the middle of the filets will die, but you won't necessarily capture them. Fish have a "lateral-line" that you can see. It follows the spine and is generally accepted as the best place to put your shot. Personally, I prefer a shot about an inch behind the eye. That's where the brain is, and a fish shot there will give you no trouble.

Lastly, learn the species and catch restrictions before you go. Always know what it is before you shoot it. There are probably some abundant species where you are going that are good to eat, not too hard to find, and will make for easy practice.

Best of luck to you, and let us know how it goes!