is "never freedive alone!(!!)" safe?

[esom]

there is talk about "safety" on this forum since years. as far as i can see the way this is done has changed over the years. there has been info and experience put in words since the beginning, but lately the commandment "never freedive alone!" and similar rules can be met more and more often. this growing paternalism beyond the passing of information and experience is in itself becoming a risk for free divers *. Why?
the obvious and frequently posted reason for this is, that wether you have a buddy or not, your safety depends on your judgements. this truth is eclipsed, as soon as safety talk is dominated by rules.
differently said: paternalism is not promoting responability

less obvious but just as problematic is, that the commandment "never freedive alone!" contains a definition of a freedive:
your underwaterswim is only a freedive, if you are at exceeding risk of problems a buddy can help with.

let´s put the harm, that such a restrictive definition does to FREEdiving aside, and look at the inherent promotion of a competitive way of freediving. "competitive" means here not the actual sport disciplins and their training, but simply a pushing tendency. How do these contexts affect safty? i do not want to try a general answer to this.
what i can say is that if we go on like this and "never freedive alone!" becomes more and more accepted and outspoken, it will be possible to find the competitivness WE put into freediving by saying "never freedive alone!" in almost every future freediving accident- the ones where the victim had a buddy, as well as the ones where the victim was alone.


So in short ...

do you believe that to decide for yourself to never freedive alone and to tell others to not freedive alone prevents/produces accidents?
is it good to inform?
is it good to trust and leave freediving definitions to the free divers?



please dont get me wrong: i do not say diving alone is safe or not safe.
...and i also do not say, saying "never freedive alone!" is THE reason for competitivness in freediving



*this paternalism is not only done on this forum, but also promoted in the intructor courses of the agencies

 

[Simos]

Not sure exactly what you are asking esom. But here's a few thoughts on a much discussed already subject:

1. Blackouts are *mostly* when limits are crossed, but not always. You cannot predict them or feel them coming. So this alone would imply that a buddy is a must.

2. Competitiveness - of course, this brings more BOs. But how many freedivers have died while buddy training in a pool? (compared to those diving alone) I bet if you could have a BO/death ratio it would be pretty low in buddy training in pool.

It terms of depth again it would be pretty low but yes, nothing is 100% safe. But let's put it this way - without a buddy and recovery system, someone would be completely nuts to attempt any depths near the current WRs.... So again, without a buddy these depths/competitions would not be possible in the first place.

I understand where you are coming from and there is an element perhaps of pushing harder because you know there is a buddy sometimes but make no mistake, diving alone is not the answer!

That's my view at least - I dive very conservatively and never had a BO by the way. I even *think* I know very safe limits for myself (like everyone) which I tested many times but still, I don't dive without a buddy.

 

[esom]

hi simos,
i did not want to discuss again how safe it is to dive with a buddy and how safe it is to dive alone. i´d like to make the over and over repeating answers/rules themself a subject.
one way to interpret my first "short question":
how does the decision to never freedive alone affect my solodiving safety?
another:
does not telling newbies to "never dive alone" produce accidents?

edit: the thread title is: is "never freedive alone!(!!)" safe? note the "..." and ! ... i like to discuss saying,writing "never freedive alone!"and also telling myself "never freedive alone!"

 

[Simos]

hi simos,
i did not want to discuss again how safe it is to dive with a buddy and how safe it is to dive alone. i´d like to make the over and over repeating answers/rules themself a subject.
one way to interpret my first "short question":
how does the decision to never freedive alone affect my solodiving safety?
another:
does not telling newbies to "never dive alone" produce accidents?

Hi esom. So if I understand, do you mean whether someone who is used to buddy training will be in more danger when they eventually dive alone than someone that has been diving alone all along?

How do you think that telling a newbie never to dive alone would produce an accident? (over presumably telling them to freedive alone at will)

 

[esom]

haha,

you get me all wrong i feel. those examples were questions and there were ment as those. -not answers.

regarding "being used to...": my questions points at what is stated/said/said to oneself, not what "is" (for example being used to this and that).

regarding problems connected to telling "n d a!" : read my original post- just ask if it´s too complicated, maybe take some time.

 

[Ms Mer]

Your description of safety as paternalism is confusing. I imagine that the "never freedive alone" mantra that is repeated on the forum, by instructors and at freediving clubs is not done with the intention of being paternalistic, rather to promote safe practice and get people doing things according to best practice from the start.

 

[esom]

hi ms mer,
well, doing this not intentionally is not changing much, is it? what means a commandment regarding your own safety to you? for me it´s paternalism, which is for more or less years in ones life just vital. no dogma here at all.

i too understand thats it´s widely done to "promote safe practice...". my point is that this special way of promoting safe practice has its inherent problems. -see my original post

 

[Simos]

haha,

you get me all wrong i feel. those examples were questions and there were ment as those. -not answers.

regarding "being used to...": my questions points at what is stated/said/said to oneself, not what "is" (for example being used to this and that).

regarding problems connected to telling "n d a!" : read my original post- just ask if it´s too complicated, maybe take some time.

Yes it is too complicated - I can see a bit where you are going with it but out of all things to pick on, I think this is a very theoretical one.

Do you know of a case of a beginner (or other) that had an accident that could have been prevented if they were not told to 'never freedive alone'?

When it comes to safety people do need these clear rules - especially when the non-safe alternative is so much more convenient (ie diving alone). Not sure what course you did or even teach (this is a question) but at least the ones that I've seen do give information - I wouldn't say it's paternalism at all.

Also you are assuming that just because someone is a beginner in freediving they are also mindless and inexperienced in life. From my experience of Freediving courses, the typical profile of a beginner is not a 14 year old kid that doesn't understand about risk etc.

A lot of people are already been scuba diving for years, understand why a buddy is needed there, have seen real issues happening etc so they can really put in context what is being said.

So I guess I don't see any issues - in fact I think the word 'never' cannot be stressed enough.

 

[esom]

i don´t think it´s theoretical in particular, even if it was, i feel it is in good company to many other threads here on deeper. actually i considers this dicussion quite practical.
regarding actual accidents: yes there have been incidents under the influence of this community slogan. you see what i mean? the mechanisms i´d like to discuss are not mechanical like "if the carabiner would have been closed properly..."
regarding courses: i did not write about courses, but about what is tought to becoming instructors and cept as a demand in courses by spreading material containing "n d a".
your next point i don´t get ... i assume no life experience??? please explain

btw. what do you think where the urge to oversimplify- like "alone not safe" "buddy safe" comes from? it´s oversimplification isn´t it? i doubt it is feed by ideas that are enhancing safty.

 

[Siku]

there have been incidents under the influence of this community slogan.

Eson, can you tell us more detail about the incident(s) specifically please?

 

[fcallagy]

esom I actually think the slogan was more for experienced freedivers. Usually and I am generalising people who die freediving are newbies in pools and spearfishermen either alone or with same ocean buddy so alone really. Many experienced freedivers do dive alone and will continue to do so as its what they like. Yes its selfish and it makes life harder for those left behind who are trying to promote freediving as an inherently safe sport if practiced correctly.

 

[esom]

Eson, can you tell us more detail about the incident(s) specifically please?

i´m inclined to ask back: which incident you know of happened not under the influence of "n d a!"?
this is not to be polemic, but to illustrate what i mean when i say "influence". Every freediver who got hit by this command, can either follow it, or dismiss it. but either way it will have an impact (more or less strong) on his/her diving. this will be and was true for victims, that (will) have been connected to the freediving community- i feel i repeat myself. maybe also read my original post again

@fcallagy
you mean the slogan makes most sense for experienced freedivers, or that was ment to be followed by the experienced? anyway, reality it is that newbees have to scratch it from their faces over and over again, instead of digesting the vast experience and knowledge, that is brought together over the years.
to be frank i personally don´t care too much about promoting freediving as a safe sport. the actual safety of freedivers including myself is much more important to me. i tried to express this with my original post.

 

[trux]

i´m inclined to ask back: which incident you know of happened not under the influence of "n d a!"?

I do not think there is anybody else here on this thread who claims accidents happened under the influence of the "not diving alone" warning. So I am afraid nobody else than you can report on them. And when an accident happens at a solo diver, then apparently he did not take the warning not to dive alone seriously enough.

Due to my work with data and freediving news, and the cooperation with DAN and several freediving federations, a lot of data and statistics of freediving accidents pass through my hands. So far I did not hear about any fatal accident that happened with proper buddy system (except of some really extreme No Limits dives). The only problem is, that people who did not take any course, did never participate at a competition, did not see or experience any blackout or samba, underestimate it, and do not dive safely even if they are not alone. So you have often freedivers or spearfishers who leave with a buddy or a group, but dive each in fact individually. That is indeed very little helpful, and sometimes may even pose additional risk - for example when one diver attempts retrieving the body of his buddy who already sank to the bottom.

However, at trained freedivers, with proper buddy system, it practically cannot happen. The surface buddy dives to some 5-15m to meet the ascending freediver, accompanies him to the surface, and continues to watch him for another 30s. Only then it is his turn.

With such system, there is indeed very little space for an accident. The possibility of a blackout before the ascent is negligible. And when the freediver is accompanied during the last meters of his ascent, and the buddy is trained, there is no reason it would turn ugly for both even in the case of a SWB.

So of course, diving with a buddy is crucial for the safety, but both freedivers need to know and follow also the right protocols. And they need to drill the rescues regularly. Without that, freediving with a buddy just diving at the same spot is not a big contribution for higher safety. It is just solo diving in a group. May be useful for localizing and retrieving the body, but not much more. I would not call it buddy diving.

So to some extent I agree that the warning "never dive alone" is not sufficient. It should be followed by the detailed instructions how to do the buddy diving, how to drill it, and where to take a course.

Taking a course, participating at a competition, or visiting a freediving club is rather important for the right safety - you will learn and drill the right safety protocols, and most importantly you will likely experience how easily you can black out even without seing it coming, and you will start taking the advices of more experienced freedivers more seriously. I see it among nebwies in our club after each competition or PB session - we teach them the proper safety since the beginning, but most of them do not pay much attention. It then quickly turns when they see the first sambas or blackouts of their friends, and realize instantly they would not survive if they were alone.

 

[Siku]

,

i´m inclined to ask back: which incident you know of happened not under the influence of "n d a!"?

... maybe also read my original post again.

I'm not referring to your original post. I'm asking for specifics of the incidents you claim were due to a policy of not diving alone. You seem to want to avoid that question?

If you mean to say that ALL diving incidents take place in the context of a community that believes we shouldn't dive alone then fair enough - I think by and large we do all believe that. But as Trux has explained, the incidents do not occur when the policy is understood and employed, but when it is ignored or applied inadequately. In this way nearly ALL incidents (except the few NLT cases) occured when dives were NOT under the influence of a "n d a" policy.

Personally I've been diving for two years, training once or twice a week, and I've never seen a samba or a black out. I hope I can react well if I ever do. At our club we also encourage everyone to 'dive within their relaxation limits'. That means to be honest with yourself and when you start to tense up, come up and end the dive, even if the end of the pool is only a few meters away. That means taking responsibility, not just pressing on and hoping a buddy will save you.

 

[esom]

regarding influence, siku hit the spot: "If you mean to say that ALL diving incidents take place in the context of a community that believes we shouldn't dive alone then fair enough".
to me, this is not about prove by report but about what you want to be true.

So to some extent I agree that the warning "never dive alone" is not sufficient. It should be followed by the detailed instructions how to do the buddy diving, how to drill it, and where to take a course.

Taking a course, participating at a competition, or visiting a freediving club is rather important for the right safety - you will learn and drill the right safety protocols, and most importantly you will likely experience how easily you can black out even without seing it coming, and you will start taking the advices of more experienced freedivers more seriously.

what can i say??? to try to sum your post up -on topic: you think that paternalism is a problem too. but not because it´s too much but because there´s too less. got you right?

as i wrote earlier, i did not start the thread to discuss the importance of a dive buddy again, although i do see the need to share information, and your commitment to this.

 

[esom]

,
If you mean to say that ALL diving incidents take place in the context of a community that believes we shouldn't dive alone then fair enough - I think by and large we do all believe that.

as i said, thats what i wanted to say... almost. there is a difference between "believing we shouldn´t" and commanding "do not ... !"
my original post is about why it may be important to take this difference serious.

so: all diving incidents of members of the freediving community, take place in the context of a community in which many divers are told by each other to "never dive alone"

 

[trux]

what can i say??? to try to sum your post up -on topic: you think that paternalism is a problem too. but not because it´s too much but because there´s too less. got you right?

No, I did not speak about any paternalism. I am telling buddy safety makes your diving safer, when really applied. Having a buddy 100m away from you, diving in the same time as you, or looking the other way is not buddy diving, it is still solo diving. This is also always explained in details during curses or in clubs, but you cannot go into such details when printing a simple sticker or passing a quick message. Hence "never dive alone" is already good and strong message, clearly stating there is a significant risk in solo diving. It just needs to be followed by more details explaining what buddy diving is, and how to really dive safely.

 

[fcallagy]

No i dont think so we all know this to be the safest way to dive and encourage each other to dive in this way.That said not everyone takes their own advice. Doctors still smoke etc
and some freedivers still dive alone. We are human after all and prone to make mistakes and take chances.

 

[Siku]

I'm running the sessions in our local pool and have been working hard to install good practices:

* Attentive and close buddying
* Knowledge of safety procedures
* 30" observation
* surface protocol
* others?

Sometimes it feels like they all think I'm crazy - we're only doing 25m lengths after all. One person said "I've been doing lengths underwater (alone) all my life".

Any suggestions welcome.

 

[fcallagy]

I'm running the sessions in our local pool and have been working hard to install good practices:

* Attentive and close buddying
* Knowledge of safety procedures
* 30" observation
* surface protocol
* others?

Sometimes it feels like they all think I'm crazy - we're only doing 25m lengths after all. One person said "I've been doing lengths underwater (alone) all my life".

Any suggestions welcome.

Do a theory lesson with vids of actual sambas and BOs in the classroom. A few shots of people with eyes rolling usually brings people to the reality of what can happen.