Is the Doria the "Everest"

[Wazee Diver]

I'm with Jon , 100%

Deep air diving ........................Don't do it.

Take the time to do the tri-mix cert.You will thank us in the long run.

We are all here to help you in any way we can. Stay away from the deep air diving.

Al

 

[efattah]

Some scuba friends told me they dove a prized site on air at 150 feet. Later, they dove the same site on trimix. According to them, they didn't see hardly anything the first time (on air), simply because they were too narked to notice anything, even though they didn't realize it at the time.


Eric Fattah
BC, Canada

 

[efattah]

I suddenly realized a weird concidence here. While freediving here in the cold dark waters near Vancouver, we have noticed that freediving narcosis becomes noticeable at depths of over 57 metres. This is a pretty abrupt depth. Most divers notice nothing until they do a 58m dive. Ironically this is 190 feet, almost the same depth that is considered safe for air diving. Could toxic O2 levels be amplifying the narcosis?


Eric Fattah
BC, Canada

 

[Wazee Diver]

Carbon dioxide produces a form of narcosis that is somewhat didderent from inert gas narcosis.Whereas inert gas narcosis decreases both speed and accuracy in cognitive function tests, C02 tends to decrease the speed only without influenceing accuracy.


C02 also increases the blood flow to the brain,and that increases the "dose"of 02 to the brain.

And 02 tox brings on inert gas narcosis.............


All this info is from Tom Mount's Technial Diver Encyclopedia



Have a great day
Al

 

[TRITON]

Nobody in our country does gas mixed dives ,NOBODY,so everything we do ,we do it on air.
for all those who say that diving to -75(Doria) on air is death......please visit this site(those are the people I dive with)

www.triton-ast.co.yu

 

[TRITON]

Here I am at 74 meters (on air).

 

[Jon]

Your eyes are closed and you don't look to happy in that photo Triton.

Compare that with some of Wazze Diver's friends that I saw coming back from one of their trimix dives. I think that I remember them planning on hitting some depths close to 400'- in 39 degree water no less. This was taken on a simple dive to around 220' or so.

People used to do a lot of deep air diving around here before mix was widely availible. They have had many things happen to them that I hope don't happen to you.

Besides the normal running out of air, because they were narked, getting bent and going to the chamber multiple times, some of them also DIED!

There were some other interesting things that happend to them that I am sure you are not aware of from your posts.

One guy became impotent because of the spinal hit that he recieved.

Another one just had a new hip put in and doesn't dive anymore. He was a real cowboy too. He did all of these deep air dives without the knowledge of modern deco tables. He never got the bends, that I know of, but the microbubble damage just accumulated over time and ate away at his joints.

In any good deep diving class you would learn about the long term efects of deep air diving and how it can cause premature arthritis and Aseptic Bone Necrosis.

None of us on here want to see you get hurt. Just because you've gotten away with something doesn't make it safe.

My main goal in diving is to be able to keep diving into my 90's. I started when I was 14 and have been a scuba instructor longer than you have been alive. During those years I have never run out of air or been bent. Unfortunatly, I have had to help out others who have been through both. I have even done CPR on divers who pushed things to far- and didn't make it. Even if I made I through 20 years of seep air bounce diving, I ma not sure that my joints would be in any shape to allow me to dive into my 90's. THis is a lifetime sport for me, and I am planning on a very long life.

From your posts on your freediving abilites I can see that you have a very promising future as a diver, and a deep diver at that. You just need to get the proper training to make sure that you are doing it safely. Deep air diving can shorten your diving up career quite a bit- even if you never get bent.

Just because there is no mixed gas diving in your country right now doesn't mean that you can't start it. THis could be your way to leave your lasting imprint on your local diving scene. You could become the first trimix diver, and maybe even instructor, in your area. You could become the "go-to" guy for the others in your area.

Many people have responded with concern over your plans. THey are only interested in your safety.

You don't have to listen to any of us. You are free to dive how you wish, just don't look for our confirmation that what you are doing is in any way safe or OK to do.

Checkout the following orginizations for proper training. I dive DIR myself, but any of these orginizations will give you better advice than you have right now.

GUE
TDI/SDI
IANTD
NAUI-TECH

You could also subscribe to the GUE QUEST list to learn more, or even post your question onto the Tech Dive List to see what kind of answer you get.

There are many more things that I could add, like breathing resistance of air over helium, but I am not on here to teach you a class. We all just want you to be safe.

JON

P.S. THis will be my last post on the subject. Take my "free" advice for what its worth.

 

[redhell]

Diving in 75 with air is suicidal. Penetration on a 40year wreck on that conditions? ARGGGGG!
Diving on air down there although it is beyond the limits and everybody wants to do it, (even I had done it once) it is without question something to AVOID!

Try the trimix course at the proper place, with the right instructor. It will open a world beyond your fantasies... I totally agree with Jon.

DIVE SAFE

PS. Lets assume at your bounce dive at 75msw, on the 2 and final minute of your planned BT, you get entangled on a fishing net and you spend 8 minutes to get free (I doupt you or anybody could make it on THAT Narcosis, but anyway). Do you know that you'll need 85 minutes of Deco with air? Or 24minutes using EAN36, EAN50 and pure oxygen? Where are you gonna rig all that gases???
On your recreational MARES BCD???

- A friend died at 65m in a air dive, last Feb. We found him 4 days later at 110m, without his face. The fishes had eat it.

I DONT WANT ANYBODY HAVE THE SAME FATE. Please be carefull!

 

[TRITON]

Thanks redhell.....i'll need it

 

[Wazee Diver]

Great web site ,Alex

I loved the photos. To bad I couldn't read were they were from.

Stay alive

Al

 

[TRITON]

THere will soon be a version in English,so visit it in a few weeks.

 

[JS1scuba]

The Andrea Doria was coined the Mt. Everest of Diving in an article printed in the Sunday Long Island Newsday magazine in 1985. This was a feature on Capt. Steve Bielenda / Wahoo.

Since that time the Andrea Doria has been visited almost every year since then. The key players over the years have been the Wahoo and the Seeker, on occasion the Sea Hunter and a variety of "try it this season" boats.

Along the eastern seaboard of the United States one has to travel pretty far off-shore to get to the 200-300 fsw wrecks. many times this is 60-150 miles from land. This is dramatically different than the 300 fsw wrecks off the warm florida coast just miles off-shore or the USS Monitor just 15 miles from shore off Cape Hatteras North Carolina.

As my wife says: Doing the dive is a challenge, but surviving the boat ride is the key.

Imagine for a moment leaving dock at 8pm and taking an 18 hour ride in the bumpy ocean to the site, cramped quarters, (this aint no Peter Hughes livaboard) lots of gear, plenty of noise. Then get the boat tied in. Which can either be a cake walk or a nighmare depending on the condisions.

The Doria is 65 miles straight line from Nantuket but takes at least 100 miles to get to. It's smack in the middle of the shipping lanes with super tankers usually not more than 2 miles off your stern.... some days the fox is so thick you cant see your hand in front of your face. The daytime is hot and the nighttime on the ocean is dead-body cold. (July).

The currents can run one way on the surface, another way mid column and yet another way on the bottom.

The wreck lies on her starboard side in 235 fsw, not 250 not 300. Inside one can get as deep as 255 if you are in the wrong place. Some wash outs under the bow can get to 255 as well.
Typical tie in is on the port side rail or life boat davits at 180 fsw (I have done 10 tie-ins) Average dive is at 205 in the promenade deck region or along the face of the wreck -- deeper than 210 on the outside and you will be faced with lots of debris, nets, etc.

Inside is a challenge to itself, cables, pipes, crubmling walks, cielings, etc ......its dark its dirty and its exciting -- with the super structure gone and the decks peeling away she changes every season ... each year getting more and more dangerous.

Depth is not the issue on this wreck -- the sheer size of it and the deterioration combined with the desire for a goodie is what makes this Grand Dame of the sea so challenging.

But on a good day as you descend the anchor rode she is sprawled out along the sea bed ready to be explored by those willing to make the committment.

I've got 46 dives on the wreck on 12 trips, im due back again this summer to make 50

The hot books on this wreck are:

Andrea Doria - Dive to an Era .. Gary Gentile
well written description of the wreck with many artifact photos
written in early 90s

Deep Descent -- Kevin McMurray
http://www.deepdescent.com
great book -- all about the people and the wreck
good read

my 1992 article http://www.nitroxdiver.com/Library/doria.html

my 1999 article http://www.nitroxdiver.com/Library/NAUIdoria.html

hope this helps those who are interested ............

regards,

 

[talion]

Everest Unfound!

Everest is a mountain that is formally and unquestionably the highest peak in the world. As was pointed out, it is not the technical difficulty but the height and reduced O2 density and weather conditions that is the problem.

One cannot say the same when considering wrecks because there will never be a formal and unquestioned declaration of the deepest & condition dependent wreck dive, simply because there are to many unknown and yet undived wrecks littered throughout the oceans depths.

April 2003 sees a group of South African divers attempting to dive the MTS Oceanos 4km off the Transkei coast. To date only two missions have been conducted, one by means of a tethered submersible and another by Riaan Bower who managed to just touch the wreck before being swept off. Riaan later had a fatal accident on a Coelacanth dive off Sodwana Bay at 100m+.

The MTS Oceanos lies at 92m and is hammered by strong current throughout the year. Diving the wreck would be an impossibility were it not for 2 window periods in April and December when the current abates. These periods last for a period of only 1 to 2 weeks. There is a heck of a lot of rope attachments that ascend up from the wreck which sank in 1991. These ropes are normally "pulled" down due to sealife attachment and growth but not so on the Oceanos. The ropes remain upright because no live can attach itself due to the strong current.

The dive will be conducted on Cis-Lunar Fatman Scooters as used on Jill Heinerth's deep cave penetration record. One diver will be on closed circuit trimix. The algorithms & calculations for Trimix on Rebreather at that depth are largely untried.

A doctor will be on standby for any problems as the nearest chamber for "mild" decompression is some way off. Any serious DCI i.e embolism will probably result in death as facilities for such treatment are very far away, even though a chopper will be on standby at the launch point.

This is the first expedition of it's kind to the Oceanos. Filming equipment will be taken down and hopefully images will be made available. Penetration for bell retrieval will be attempted.

Everest? Nah! K2!

 

[tom yerian]

Thanks James - you hit it on the head - the question re Doria i posed was in that vain. For many years the Doria has been regarded as one of the hardest (well known) wrecks to dive, just as Everest has been climbed whilst not being the hardest climb it is the pinnacle - there is nothing higher
I was just interested to find out with the inprovements in Equipment and training - gas mixs et al - is the Doria still regarded as an ultimate acheivement for tech divers - if not what other dives are now regarded as pushing to the limit?

Yes and no! The " D" is a deep, cold wreck with a history of "diving deaths" Do to the difficulty in in technique, her past majesty, and being a wreck with lots of notoriety, you could say she is one of the premier weck dives. There are many. I like the USS WILKSBARRE far more....Capt Tom

 

[sitdown248]

My goal is to dive it one day although I know I am not ready yet (mainly because I am not old enough to get technical training!) Ever since I began reading about scuba diving the Andrea Doria has been the Mt. Everest of scuba diving and will always be for me even if it is deteroriating. When you take in how many people have died and the conditioins it definately is the greatest dive in the world. As for diving it on air...well yeah people can, what do you think they did before trimix was invented?

 

[Jon]

Hey Sitdown,

If your interested in deep wrecks you should know that you have plenty of better wrecks close to home. If your looking for a challenge a buddy of mine runs charters every summer to the Carl D. Bradly (320'+) which is off the Michigan cost in Northern Lake Michigan. Shipwreck Adventures

There are also some fantastic wrecks to the east, in lake Huron, that are all in the 200' range and boast 100'+ vis these days- thanks to the zebra and quaga mussles.

I would suggest getting as many dive in as you can between now and when your old enough to start training. I started young as well and became and instructor at 18 to pay my way through college.

I've had a chance to some of the wrecks in your area and they are way better than anything you fins in saltwater because they are presreved so much better. You can dive on 100+ year old wrecks that are not only made out of wood but still have their original paint on the walls of them.

A better dive to set your sites on is the Gunilda. She sits in 270' of water up in superior and Cousteau claimed her to be the prettiest wreck he had ever seen. I was invited to dive her but this kind of diving gets to be VERY expensive as it is in a remote location and helium bills run up pretty quickly for this kind of stuff. Since I have a couple of small kids my wife decided it wasn't in our budget.

Jon


Jon

 

[sitdown248]

I would love to dive many of those wrecks when I am ready. I've mainly dove wrecks around the Lexington/Port Huron area. Ships like the Regina, Mary Alice B. and the New York (120). I have not been able to do any salt water wreck diving yet. Normally we take a trip down to Cozumel each Febuary and go diving. THey have a wreck down there, but it was artifically made, so I have no idea what condition it's in. When I first started diving, I've been amazed by the shipwrecks even more then the reefs and now I'm beginning to consider them boring and repetive, with no challenge. I've wanted to be a technical diver since I first heard about it and I'm very anxious to turn 18 to begin training. I am currently taking the rescue diver program and nitrox courses over the summer. Thank you for the information, one day I'd love to dive the Bradley, I got to see the video about the first man to dive it and it looks awesome!

 

[Jon]

If wrecks are your thing you have no reason to travel far from home. Everything in saltwater is destroyed after a few years under water and those "planted" wrecks just aren't the same as a "real" one.

In the past 15-20 years the mussels have really cleaned things up in the lakes. When I started wreck diving 10' was considered god vis and now 100' is considered good.

When I started we all dove deep air and were lucky just to have a hooka 02 system in place to make our deco safer. Now there's course to actually trwch you to dive that way and lots of gear to support it in a much safer manner than in the past- with things like isolation manifolds and readily available trimix. There's also the whole rebreather thing to get into if you have the cash.

If your looking for a challenge there are a ton just to north up in Superior. Besides the Gunilda (270), there's also the Fitzgerald (535') have kind of put that one off limits after the sneak dive Mike Z. and Terrence Tysall pulled on her about 10 years ago. Another captain I know ran the first charter to the Aurania last year (430'+) in the same area of the lake.

One course that you could take right now is the DIR-Fundamentals course. It will help you in your future endevors. There should be shops in your area where you could try and sign up for it. You'll need your rescue and nitrox cards first.

Jon

 

[sitdown248]

Yeah, I have heard the zebra mussels cleaned things up (wouldn't know , haven't been alive that long! lol) I just don't feel safe with rebreathers yet, maybe in the future when they have all the problems worked out, but I know what I'm breathing when I dive open circuit scuba. The Fitzgerald would be an awesome dive. I bet they open it up in the future when most of the relatives of crewmen have died and stuff. I know the dive shop in Port Huron offers DIR courses and technical diving stuff, but I wasn't sure if anyone would let me because I'm not 18. Believe me, if they would allow it, I'd be the first person signed up for the class. I'm almost done with rescue and just need to do the certification dives. I talked to the instructor in the Port Huron dive shop and he said Nitrox isn't that difficult because you're not learning any new skills, just certain rules for diving.