Is this Frenzel????

[AlexD]

So I need someone to tell me if this is what I think it is...

Reading about Valsava / Frenzel, I decided to test how difficult a valsava would be with completely empty (or as much as I possible can force them to be empty) lungs, so I tried to do a light equalization...

and to my complete surprise, it was exactly the same thing I always do, didn't feel any different!
I never really thought about what was going on, it just felt natural, and if what I am doing is a frenzel, then its pretty much what I have always done. Now that I think about it, I never really feel like im 'blowing' into my ears from my diaphragm, I just feel it in my throat and sinuses (and ears of course)

So my question is...is it? If I understand correctly, a valsava cannot be done with emptied lungs right? or am I missing something?

 

[WillUnderwater]

Well, you don't really tell us how you did the said equalization or what the conditions were (depth, etc)..

It could be voluntary equalization by control of the tubes..

 

[mechanik]

Alex, I had this exact same revelation while trying to figure out Frensel myself on a ferry out to a diving class. I had been doing frensel equalization weakly and if I had trouble with one of my ears, I would force the equalization with all my lungs a la Valsalva.

So, basically yes, if you empty your lungs and put negative pressure on them as if you're trying to suck air in, but have closed off your epiglotis, any equalization done is entirely with the throat and palatte. I believe that's Frensel, and if it's not the exact procedure they describe, it works just fine for me down to the 60 feet I've been to.

I'd be interested to hear if other people stumble on to this the same way. Or if they have other recommendations.

 

[AlexD]

When i posted this it was done dry (just emptying lungs and reverse packing) but I got to try it today at the pool doing some negative pressure dives and confirm that I was indeed doing frenzel. As long as I have some air in my mouth, I can equalize ok.

 

[TimoP]

When I first read and heard about equalising techniques, I first tought I was doing Valsalva. But later I noticed I've always done Frenzel, probably already from that time I started snorkling as a kid.

Some easy dry testing to check if it's Valsalva or Frenzel. Just keep your mouth shut (ooops, how this could be said friedlier ) and pinch your nose, and then:

1. Put your hand on your diaphragm. Do some equalising. Do your feel clear movements in diaphragm?
If surely yes, it's Valsalva. If nothing, it's (probably) Frenzel.

2. Put your fingers on your throat just below jaw and grip a little. Do some rapid equalising. Do you feel strong clear rapid movements up in the throat? If yes, it's (probably) Frenzel. If just a little, it's maybe Valsalva.

3. Do equalising so rapidly you can. If you can EASILY do 10-20 equalisings just in 5 seconds, it's probably Frenzel (or other special eq technique). But if it's not easy to do many eqs in one second, it's maybe Valsalva. And if your diaphraph get tired after many rapid equalisings, it's surely Valsalva.

These are just some easy ways to test. There are some personal variations, so these are just hints, no 100 % sure facts for everybody. These 1.-3. are also useful, when learning or training Frenzel.

 

[ptoot]

when you can equalize with your mouth open, does that mean that you Frenzel?

 

[TimoP]

Yeah, never noticed before. I can do Frenzel equalising mouth open, no problem. With Valsalva air escapes out from open mouth. I have used Frenzel so much, that Valsalva was now a bit diffucult to "find" and do.

Mouth open can be done some special equalising too, but they are (much) more rare than Frenzel and Valsalva.

 

[trux]

You can do both Valsalva and Frenzel with open mouth. For doing it (at both of them), you just need to have the soft palate in the bottom position (closing the mouth, opening the sinus). The only difference between the techniques is that at Valsalva the epiglottis remains open, while at Frenzel it is closed.

Equalizing after emptying the lungs and some reverse packs is the way to check for Frenzel.

 

[TimoP]

I can't do Valsalva right then...but I'm not worried about that
With empty lugns after several reverse packs...yes, Frenzel feels as easy as normally.

 

[zecheer]

It seems a lot of people do Frenzel by instinct, I do too. Valsalva requires much more efforts to perform, on top of waisting your precious air.

Once you make sure you do Frenzel and not Valsalva, you can improve Frenzel a lot by exercising it in various conditions.

You can check E. Fattah's (I know he's around somewhere on DeeperBlue ) Frenzel workshop at www.liquivision.ca, a precious training document.

 

[myfish]

To be absolutely truthful...

I do frenzel, but it took an age to figure it out via documents.
I read eric's brilliant doc on the whole thing broken down which in
all fairness, probably made the equalisation harder to learn because i
expected it to be more complicated than it really was.

However, i stuck with it and in the end, i did, and do now, frenzel pretty
much exclusively.
In fact, i find doing valsalva hard now as i have to think about it.

One thing i did find hard was doing frenzel inverted.
I practiced for what seemed an age on dry land but at 10M or deeper
i just couldn't perform frenzel inverted.

This is when i realised that for months, in fact, forever, i wasn't
descending correctly and i was hyperextending my neck looking for the
plate.
Chin tucked in....
Frenzel now no problem, inverted or not.

Hope this helps someone..

 

[TimoP]

This is when i realised that for months, in fact, forever, i wasn't descending correctly and i was hyperextending my neck looking for the plate.

It's a very common mistake to look down for the plate...I was doing it, too. Then I realised, how much easier it was to equalise and to relax, when you look at a rope, or even better, try to look back to surface when inverted (it's possible!). In latter case I feel really relaxed and descending is easy also when going inverted (head down) deeper that 15-20 meters.

Yes, they say in courses and documents: Don't look down for the plate, look at the rope! But it seems to be so, that you must realise yourself the difference in practise before your can remember it...

 

[SofaKingDeep]

Equalizing after emptying the lungs and some reverse packs is the way to check for Frenzel.

could someone explain what you mean by reverse packs? Emptying your lungs and then try to squeeze the last rest out by contractions or so?


I believe I can do frenzel(by a strange combination of moving tongue and jaw) on the surface.
But somehow I fail to do it underwater. Any Hints what might be my problem?
It just doesn't "click" underwater like when I do it on the surface.

 

[TimoP]

It's no need to move jaw when doing Frenzel. Maybe it's not a enough strong or right Frenzel, and that's cause the problem in water...

Reverse packing...it's reverse packing Something like this (trux may correct if needed):

1. Exhale your lungs as empty as possiple. Pinch your nose.

2. Then shut your mouth, (edit, check trux post:) pull air from lungs by expanding your mouth. Shut your epiglottis, open your mouth and push that air out from mouth.

Do 2. again as many time you can (not so many, you will notice, if your lungs are exhaled almost empty already).

 

[trux]

Well, the reverse pack is not really pushing air from lung to mouth, but exactly oppositely - pulling air from lungs by expanding your mouth. Basically it reminds me blowing the alco tester when police controls you, and you try to fill it with the air you have in mouth. There is a difference though - when blowing the alco tester, you close the epiglottis completely and just blow the balloon with your mouth. At reverse packing you open epiglottis when increasing the mouth cavity volume. In another way - you open the epiglottis and drop the jaw (while lips are closed), pulling so air from lungs into mouth; then you close the epiglottis, open the lips, and blow the air from the mouth by closing the jaw, and pushing the tongue up, to the hard palate.

You also use the same technique for filling your mouth at mouth-fill equalization. With the exception, that you do not blow the air out

 

[azapa]

reverse pack is sometimes called the "grouper grunt". its very easy to do, but probably sounds harder
to practice, wet or dry:

- breathe out all air, crunch yourself up a little
- make sure your mouth/cheeks are empty too, hold your nose if you want/need
- grunt a little air into your mouth, filling your cheeks like a hamster (or other small rodent of your choice)
- (don't cheat by breathing in)
- puff that air out through your lips, and do again

the "grunt air into mouth" is the reverse pack bit.

don't do more than 2 or three times unless you know what you are doing, and I looks silly too, make sure non-freedivers are not watching.

reverse packs during depth diving is the same, except don't puff the air out of your mouth