Lactc tolerance exercises

[hteas]

I only push the lactic exercises 1/week. Too hard on my body with more.
because it's an all out effort, I breathe during them. If you're doing them well, you will be breathing like a locomotive by the end of 30 seconds. No need for the extra pain of breathhold.

Like Tiger suggests, do CO2 workouts separately. Keep these things simple.

 

[growingupninja]

Dave,
I have stayed with 30 seconds because I have read (here and other sources) that in 15 seconds you have used up all the fast twitch muscles and are then running on the slow twitch type. The theory is that continuing to push at 100% will build the slow twitch type, which we use a lot more of. Primary source is Berndt Heinrich, an environmental physiologist, in "Why We Run".

This is way off base. Apnea exercises and land exercises are very different, and most physiologists who are reputable experts in land exercise (ie anything cardio/aerobic where you can breathe) have not a clue how things function in divers. For a land based runner, or even surface swimmer, they will certainly use more slow twitch muscles (unless they are going at a sprint), but for a diver whose body is in an anaerobic state, either from long DYN swim, or coming up from the bottom of a deep dive, things are completely the opposite--vasoconstriction severly limits the amount of blood O2 available to the muscles. Slow twitch muscles derive energy mainly from blood O2, and fast twitch muscles derive energy from stored ATP. Until strong dive response/vasoconstriction kicks in, slow twitch muscles are likely being used, especially since most divers work at a very low level of exertion, but once the diver enters the struggle phase, it's fast twitch muscles, even though the muscles are working very slow.

 

[hteas]

I'm afraid you're missing a few things.
All muscles work on ATP. Thats the energy source produced in the mitochondria for all acivity.
Muscles work the same whether they are aerobic or anarobic. They burn ATP.
Can you name anyone who has a background in biology (I do), that makes statements like yours?
Your body works the same under all conditions. The only differences are in the relative proportions of CO2 and O2, and the immediate needs of the body. Running gets your heart rate up, burns ATP, and generates CO2. The same thing happens when you dive.
The real difference is the muscles worked, and your tolerance to the stresses produced.
If you can get used to the burn of anarobic exercis you will be able to put up with more of it, whether on a hill or under water.

 

[Simos]

I'm afraid you're missing a few things.
All muscles work on ATP. Thats the energy source produced in the mitochondria for all acivity.
Muscles work the same whether they are aerobic or anarobic. They burn ATP.
Can you name anyone who has a background in biology (I do), that makes statements like yours?
Your body works the same under all conditions. The only differences are in the relative proportions of CO2 and O2, and the immediate needs of the body. Running gets your heart rate up, burns ATP, and generates CO2. The same thing happens when you dive.
The real difference is the muscles worked, and your tolerance to the stresses produced.
If you can get used to the burn of anarobic exercis you will be able to put up with more of it, whether on a hill or under water.

It's true that all muscle fibres use ATP but for ATP to be produced, there are 3 different systems as far as I know. The main difference in slow twitch is that to produce ATP, oxygen is needed regardless of whether carbohydrates, fats or amino acids are used.

Fast twitch use glycogen to produce ATP and no oxygen is required so I would have thought that if limited or no O2 is available in the muscles, only fast twitch fibres will be able to continue producing ATP even if you are going really slowly, right?

I would guess that at the beginning of the dive more slow twitch is used (assuming you are swimming slowly) and then more fast twitch towards the end.

So probably you need both to a degree and depending on how much of the dive is aerobic vs unaerobic but developing the fast twitch will enable you to keep swimming when oxygen is running low, which is what you need as you don't want to be limited by muscle failure.

Just my understanding, might be wrong - let me know if I am along the right track.

 

[giddyuptiger]

The only piece of physiological information that has helped me is- Contractions don't mean you're out of o2. That and a lot of hard work. But what y'all talk about sounds impressive.

 

[growingupninja]

I'm afraid you're missing a few things.
All muscles work on ATP. Thats the energy source produced in the mitochondria for all acivity.
Muscles work the same whether they are aerobic or anarobic. They burn ATP.
Can you name anyone who has a background in biology (I do), that makes statements like yours?
Your body works the same under all conditions. The only differences are in the relative proportions of CO2 and O2, and the immediate needs of the body. Running gets your heart rate up, burns ATP, and generates CO2. The same thing happens when you dive.
The real difference is the muscles worked, and your tolerance to the stresses produced.
If you can get used to the burn of anarobic exercis you will be able to put up with more of it, whether on a hill or under water.

People experience dive response in different ways. Diving does not raise my HR--just the opposite. Swimming (aquatic movement where I can breathe) raises HR, same as running. But slow DYN causes a drop in HR for me usually after 30-40 secs and it stays below resting even when I increase the pace to sprint, but I feel a very strong lactic burn whether sprinting or continuing to swim slow. Much of what is taken for granted in exercise physiology doesnt hold true for individuals when they are experiencing a strong dive response. But yes, I agree if you can work muscles anaerobicaly on dry land (usually by sprinting/plometric exercise) it should help your diving.

 

[fabikp]

Back to the original question: I practise steep hill runs, about 80 - 100 m long up quite steep hill , not sprinting but a little more than moderate speed. Resting during walking back down and repeating 8 - 10 times. What I consider the most important: don´t stop after the end of the breathold, but go on running some 20 - 30 meters more ( I cannot hold longer but can still run). And so, because all physiological processes go on for a while, you can get a little deeper into hypoxia, lactic acid level, co2 level etc. It´s my theory at least Pavel

 

[ShallowGuy]

Back to the original question: I practise steep hill runs, about 80 - 100 m long up quite steep hill , not sprinting but a little more than moderate speed. Resting during walking back down and repeating 8 - 10 times. What I consider the most important: don´t stop after the end of the breathold, but go on running some 20 - 30 meters more ( I cannot hold longer but can still run). And so, because all physiological processes go on for a while, you can get a little deeper into hypoxia, lactic acid level, co2 level etc. It´s my theory at least Pavel

Wow, cool, thanks for your answer.

From what you written I understand you run on breath hold?

I walk up the stairs, 1-2 floors after I drop my breath holds and I've got impression it helps me to train lactic tolerance, so something similar to what you do on steep hill.

The hill I used to train on is no more than 30m long, about 30 degrees. Is it good enough? My only alternative is very short, maybe 5-6m hill, 45 degrees or more. Which one would be more beneficial for lactic training?

 

[fabikp]

Hallo, Shallowguy,

yes, I run on breath hold, about 3/4 of full.
It is not possible to say, what distance is enough. It should be so long, how long you can hold your breath and a little more, to get into lactic acid as deep as possible. Doesn´t matter if you use stairs or hill, but running outside is much more pleasant.
Nice dives, Pavel

 

[ShallowGuy]

The question I did not ask: how often would you recommend lactic training? I was doing 3 lighter sessions a week but it seems to me it's counterproductive.

 

[MarcinB]

This type of training should not be done more than twice a week. But intensity has to be really maximal (information from Aharon Salomons' webinars).

 

[ShallowGuy]

This type of training should not be done more than twice a week. But intensity has to be really maximal (information from Aharon Salomons' webinars).

Thanks Marcin.

How would you group it then? I currently do following: apnea walk, swimming sprints, apnea stairs. Due to my life pattern I cannot do intensive training. I perform apnea stairs pretty much at work, 3 sets on full lungs - 5 floors each. Then I do 2 sets of apnea walk - 1:00 hold with 2:00-2:30 walk or just 3:00+ walk. Sometimes I add empty lung walk to the mix, 2-3 sets 0:45-1:00.

I can definitely see my lactic tolerance improved in apnea walk. I can walk 3 minutes now without that burning feeling. However I still suck in DNF. I get lactic just after 60m (no immediate power loss though).

I was thinking of following: do 5 x 50m sprints breaststroke - on surface (I guess that would train my DNF specific muscles). That combined with empty lung walks after swimming and then few sets of hill sprints. Then 2-3 days break and go for my apnea stairs + apnea walks + empty lung walks again. Would it make any sense?

 

[MarcinB]

Grouping these exercises in one day and then letting your muscles to recover for 3 days makes sense to me. I think your problem with DNF may be caused by the fact that you train lactic tolerance only in your legs. Do you feel lactic burn only in your arms? Aharon Solomons described nice exercise for training lactic tolerance in arms with the use of "Thera Bands" in one of his webinars. I think breast stroke sprints may also help but arm movement is different while swimming on the surface.

 

[cdavis]

Salomons first or second thursday video discussed hill sprints to build lactic capacity. He answers most of your original questions.

 

[ShallowGuy]

Marcin - I've group them now, will see the results after few weeks/months and perhaps report the improvement. I guess my arms are fine - I don't have any power loss in them. usually even after hard training they are still fine. Legs are my bigger concern as I feel this burning sensation in them. Surprisingly I don't have an issue with legs when apnea walking even when I cover distance over 200m. Perhaps I need more breaststroke specific training.

Other aspect is there is no real power loss in my legs when I do stairs apnea. I can go up 5 floors and while legs are lactic they carry me up like a magic carpet

CDavis - I remember that webinar. Will reintroduce hill sprints again.