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Lower oxygen consumption levels.

Thread Status: Hello , There was no answer in this thread for more than 60 days.
It can take a long time to get an up-to-date response or contact with relevant users.
mindset said:
Would you mind telling us what was the PB you've improved on?
Click to expand...
Well, my performances are very modest in comparison with many others here on DB. My previous PB in DNF was quite low - 65m (so now it is 105 m). But it is an unofficial performance. I have yet to show it in a competition.
 
Thanks Trux. Looks like at the moment I'm pretty much at what your PB was prior to the quantum leap . All the more reason to give it a try. Would you mind sharing some more details? Did you warm up at all dry or was it just 15 min. of supine (or sitting?) relaxation without any warm-up/stretching and than max attempt right after that?
 
My preparation was about 5-10 minutes light stretching, around 15-20 minutes supine relaxation (I will have to experiment yet with the cyclic meditation described in the document discussed here), including 2 short empty lungs breath-holds (~2 min) at the end of that time, then moving to the edge, sitting and relaxing for a few minutes (2-3 ?), then entering the pool, resting for another 2-3 minutes, and starting.
 
At what point, (in meters) did the dive feel like total hell? When did it start to get easy? What caused you to end the dive?
On another note, how did you like your new suit? Did you pack, and if so, did the RS1 give you the chest flexibility you needed for a comfortable lungfull?
How long did the dive last?
So many questions.... sorry.
 
No problem for me, although we are getting off-topic, so only shortly:
- I thought about interrupting the dive at about 15 meters (got water in sinus and the throat at the start) but it wasn't hell as it can often be, rather the feeling "I won't get far in this state"
- It did not really start feeling easy, but neither worse, I crashed into the wall at the first turn, I messed up all my turns, start loosing my swim cap at 80 m, so caught it and kept in my hand - it means a lot of stress which certainly helped
- I think I stopped after the 4th turn, because I considered it was enough
- the Orca RS1 Fullskin is excellent - it does not limit you in any way, you practically do not feel it. No motion or respiratory restrictions whatsover. The glide is excellent - I am small and not slim at all, but despite it, I glide almost half the pool length after the turn, with the wetsuit.
- yes, I packed, but my packing is quite moderate
- unfortunately I do not know how long the dive took, but I glide a lot so it was not too fast. If I manage to repeat similar distance this Sunday during the competition, I may know better then.
 
It really wasn't too easy :blackeye, so you really get enough stress, so it helped you
I must think about that...
Ok, I see the point, but you must be really cool to get +40 m to you PB in those circumstances (swimming cap in the hand, water in the throat etc.) ! It looks like a April 1st story, but you wrote it just the day after that...
Congratulations, 105 m in DNF is very good!
 
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No, no April fool here It is exactly what we discussed above in this thread - the meditation during the preparation helped relaxing muscles and charging oxygen stores; the empty lungs breath-holds helped contracting the spleen and prepare the organism for the next apnea; and the stress during the dive helped getting a very strong diving response (bradycardia, vasoconstriction) saving so the available oxygen, hence it all really matches well together.

However, this is nothing new - a big part of freedivers prepare in a similar way for their max attempts. Though keeping the right balance between stress and relaxation is not easy, and you either need good luck, or have your diving response so well trained and reliable, that these factors do not play such an important role (it looks like it is the case for example with Dave Mullins, assuming from his comments above)
 
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It's interesting, that there are so many and really different ways how freedivers prepare to they max attemps:
- streching and "good" wet warm-ups (old school?)
- no-warm-ups, even without streching and any pre breath holds
- this pre breath holds + relaxation + stress, what you trux tried with good results
- FRC-max (only few freedivers)
- some streching, little warm-up and pre breath holds, 10 mins relaxation, try to get relaxated "flow" freedive with little O2 consumption, also good DR but propably not so strong than with stress. (I do something like that now)
- etc.

With No-warm-up-maxs and with style you trux tried, many good freedivers get top results, but these are really not easy ways to dive (ive tested). Maybe some day for me, too. Now I concentrate to relaxation, which is one key-factor in freediving anyway, especially in non-competitive freediving.

But I really like, that's a good thing, that there is not only one way to get good results. Maybe it depends on person, what is the best way, also it depends on how much you have trained and what is your Co2-tolerance, etc. No-warm-up and that optimal balance with relaxation and stress is nowadays the style many (most?) top freedivers (DYN 200+ m etc) use, as you said.
 
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Just for reference, I used the same preparation today in the competition, and confirmed it with 109 m DNF, so it worked fine again. At the first dry warm-up I even played with some elements from the cyclic meditation, but my top time was then delayed 45 minutes, so I just did a short supine relaxation in the second round.
 
Reactions: Tony Babowicz
Good Dive. Okay, lets hear the details. What was your announced performance, working time underwater, why did you end the dive, how hypoxic were you, did anyone notice your color(cyanosis). Time of day, diet before the dive,etc. I am interested in this data and if anyone else has data of their dives with similar warmups, please share.
 
OK, here you go, Tony:


Well, the performance is quite modest in the comparison with many other members here on DB, but it is true that it may interest some because it comes from an average guy, with a significant jump in performance after change of preparation.
  1. I announced 65 m, and did my DNF within a DYN competition (but in a 25m pool) so started early (in the 2nd round)
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  2. Unfortunately nobody chronometered the dives. The judge told me the first 25m took 30s, but I did not understand how he got the time if he did not chronometer it. Some people told me I was quite fast, but when I asked my club colleagues, they told I wasn't. Subjectively, I had the feeling it went very fast, but I do not mean the swimming speed - I did not push with 100% force, but swam rather relaxed (I can do the length in 2 strong movements in training, but did about 4 more relaxed ones per pool here). I just had the feeling the time ran much faster - as if each pool length took just 4-5 seconds.
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  3. I felt neither too well, neither too bad, and the feeling was pretty constant during the entire dive (same as in the training attempt).
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  4. I surfaced after the 4th turn and another movement, because I felt the muscles started to give up their service, and I did not want to risk problems at the surfacing - the safety wasn't experienced, and not really efficient, so it often happened you had no support after surfacing (fortunately I was lucky and had my board delivered promptly). Hypoxia was not a problem - my head was clear, protocol without any problems, no signs of samba. But I was quite exhausted physically, and breathed profoundly still for another ~5 minutes as if I made a very long run.
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  5. The evening before, I had a big plate of wholemeal pasta with sea fruits. I started from home at ~7AM, breakfasting only some orange juice, banana, and swallowed some rest of cold pasta . When we arrived to the place of competition around 10AM, I eat 2 muesli bars and a banana, and drank some Gatorade (one 33cl bottle before my STA start at 2PM)
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  6. The static was miserable - I used the same preparation, but did not manage to relax well, got contractions very early, and wanted to preserve force for the DNF, so gave up early and did only 4:10. Despite it I felt surprisingly hypoxic, although I do such and longer times routinely in repetitions in training tables.
    .
  7. Another two muesli bars, a banana and some water before the DNF at 16:30. I had still another bottle of Gatorade, but could not swallow the sweet water anymore, so preferred plain water
    .
  8. As for the relaxation - I did some very short stretching about 30 minutes before the dive, then around 20 minutes supine relaxation near the starting lane, including 3 quite short empty lungs breath-holds. The first one of around 30s at about 12 mins before the top, and the other ones around a minute each - I was not really as well relaxed as at the training attempt, and also the breath-holds were much shorter, so was little bit afraid, but it turned out not to have any big impact. I entered the pool shortly after the 2'-to-top announcement and tried to relax hanging on the edge (there was no step in the 2m deep pool)
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  9. Before the STA I experimented with some of the elements of the cyclic mediation discussed here in the thread (relaxation in standing position inclining for a minute forward, then equally right, backward, and left), but I still know very little about it and will have to study and train it better, to see if it has any interesting effect on apnea. I then used supine relaxation, checking up and relaxing the body part by part from top to the toes, with abdominal but flat and slow breathing.
    .
  10. In total I tried avoiding hyperventilation, but it is hard to tell if there was really none at all. I messed up the last inhale - taking it too early, being full packed at top-5, so I exhaled partially again, packed back and started at top+8. So when nothing else, this was probably already a very slight hyperventilation. As I wrote I pack only quite moderately.
 
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Nice work trux!

I and my much more talented freediving buddy (than I) did in last weekend new PB:s in different ways, so with trux's way here are 3 different ways and 3 different freedivers with new pbs :

A) A little warm-ups: safety dive/swim 15 min before attemp, some FRC- breath holdings, relax 10 min with easy FRC-sta, packing and start
=> my PB 120 m in DYN
First 60 m were very easy, relaxed enjoyable Flow-freediving, 60 m contractions started, after 75 m I was quite a stressed with strong contractions, but I tought I can make over 100 m. 75-120 m was hard but not like hell. Time 1:20+. 0-75 m was ok, but 75-120 m too fast, I was told later. I tried not to think time, so I hadn't much sense of time during the dive, what is a good thing I think. Just like trux, I was quite exhausted physically, and breathed profoundly still for some minutes as if I made a long run.
Ive done easy training for 2 years and harder training (daily tables and long apnea-walking) only 2 weeks now for a competition.

B) Absolute NO-warm-up: relaxing...sitting at a pool 10 mins, standing in the pool 10 mins. No even streching or pre FRC-sta. Mentally and physically very relaxed. Packing and start.
=> my buddy's PB 184 m, in DNF (!)
Contractions started in 40 m (earlier than mine, because I did warm-ups), but they were -or better to say: as they felt to him -easy because of much training. Very relaxed and easy dive to the end. Time 3:54, no hurry at all. SP was easy and he was not exhausted at all :O
The biggest differences in our backrounds: my buddy is in very good fit and has trained seriously over 2 years now. He can be mentally and physically (muscles) relaxed during the whole dive to the end, even when absolute NO-warm-up max. He has contractions, but he don't feel them bad. I think that combination with relaxation (mental + muscles) and stress+strong DR (because of No-warm-up) can be one key to top results.

So you can get your pb different ways. I need some warm-ups because I can't stand yet hard contractions, which I get without them. After having longer good trainings I maybe can go to less-warm-up style.
 
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Congrats to the new PB's too both you and your buddy! Wow, 184m DNF, that would be almost the world record until the last year (it was 186m until July 2008)! And far over the current Finish national record (I see 155m by Mikko Pöntinen in the ApneaMania database)! It looks like we'll see nice performances during the WC in Denmark.
 
Thanks, trux! We have Finnish Nationals after 3 weeks, so doing some more training and max attemps . And yes, Mikko was that again with 184 m. We had William Trubridge's CNF/DNF course and Alexey Molchanov's DYN course here in last year, and they were very professional and courses were useful
We have quite high DNF and STA results here (but not me), because we must train so much in pools (mainly 25 m), cause open water season here in the North is so short. Especially deep diving is very, very challencing in these conditions :blackeye. So don't wonder if we do good results in pool, but don't go very deep. Finnish Jussi Lehtonen got last year a chance to train one (1) month in warm and clear water in Menorca in Spain, and what he did - 96 m CWT! It' was an official AIDA Rec-attemp with white card, so it's NR, but it's not in the comp-rankings.
 
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So, Trux, given the improvement in the DNF do you feel the information has helped, or is it more a case of improved performance due to improved physical abilities do you think?

And if it did help, in the DNF, do you think it's possible that it may be more beneficial in that element and not necessarily the right approach for such as the Static attempt? Just a thought.
 
5kgLifter, no, I would not contribute the improvement to the information from the document about cyclic meditation that started this thread. I wrote about it here rather because we spoke also about the general influence of relaxation and stress. I used some relaxation earlier too, but used to do warm-up dives before the max attempt. Now, I replaced those with dry relaxation, increasing so both the level of muscular and cerebral relaxation, and the stress level after entering water immediately before the dive. This is a common technique, and nothing new, but it is related to the topic, hence I used it for demonstrating the effects of the relaxation (mixed with stress).

As for the cyclic meditation discussed in the document, I have yet to study more about it and make some tests.
 
Could someone who has read the document speak more about the nature of "cyclic relaxation"? Trux, you mentioned alternating passive and active states of the body. Would like to know more about that.

One of the things I found very useful in preparing for dynamic apnea in general (for me) is to get wet and stay cool.

Often, if I'm standing on the pool deck or even lying down, the humidity and heat makes me too hot. If you compare pool climate to outdoor climate here in Vancouver, it is a lot hotter inside the pool.

I've been using the no warm-up dynamic method since I started doing it in 2001. It always seemed to suit me. But sometimes I would feel disgustingly hot. So what I tend to do now, unless the pool air is really cold, is to quickly jump in and swim 3-4 strokes underwater just to get a feel for the water, cool off, and enjoy the sensation of water around me. After that I would dry off and just simply sit and watch the competition until about 15 minutes before my top. Try to imagine that I'm not even doing a dive.

Being in the water is also a positive anchor to calm me down - something I can look forward to once I'm back in the water again for my dynamic.

I really really enjoy dynamic because of the feeling of speed and swimming through the water, so to relax, this is what I focus on.

While it may lessen the shock response (I use FRC), I've found that being too hot makes the dive just feel gross from the very beginning and since the swim has no static phase (as in sta-dyn), I need to feel that I'm at least at equilibrium in terms of metabolic rate.

If you're body is busy opening pores, sweating, bringing blood to the surface for cooling, etc... it's going to have a harder time vasoconstricting - especially since the pool is warm, too.

I was very curious about the results in Egypt in 2008. So hot and no escape from the sun. And yet some pretty amazing results in the pool for some.

Dave, how did that work for you? (And anyone else who was there)
 
Pete, in the document itself, the information about the cyclic meditation is rather sparse. They speak about the experiment, and about the meditating in the standing position with inclining in four different directions for a minute and half each way (if I remember well the duration), but that's about all. They describe in details different technical details, and speak about the data taken, but are not too verbose about the mediation itself. It is also not the prupose of the document to explain cyclic meditation, but to show the impact on oxygen consumption in comparison with supine relaxation.

However, you can find plenty of links about cyclic meditation in Google. I briefly checked some, but did not yet have time to dig into it deeper, so do not have much information to share, or websites to recommend.
 
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Pete, Egypt was pretty interesting. No vasoconstriction that I could feel, and aside from fairly normal (for me) contractions that started at 60m and became less noticeable post-150m, it was very difficult to judge what state I was in towards the end of the swim. It all just felt the same....
 
Thanks Trux! But 16 meters more would be nice...

Concerning the dynamic in Egypt, my dive felt pretty much the same as always. Contractions, lactid acids and everything else came normally. The only strange thing was that somehow my PB got improved by 14 metres. Call me crazy, but I even wore a 1,5 mm Elios wetsuit...
 
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