Lung Compliance on Different Volumes

[xristos]

about 20..

On session 1 I work up to 12m in about 5 dives
then work up to 15m on session 2 in about 5
then work up to 17m on session 3 in about 5
then session 4 I do 3x15m, 1x18, 1x20

I usually stop at 20m, and this 'program' is just what works for me.. I know I can do these depths safely, and without any sensation of chest pressure.

However, 'my RV training' only starts at this point.

The 'real' test of pressure & equalization fitness in my opinion, is if I can do 20m RV without any warm-ups and no sensation of pressure on the chest.

This takes about 5-6 sessions (copy of session #4) and then 2-3 sessions attempting 20m on dive 1. (last time I did 18, 18, then finally 20 no warm up on the 3rd session).

So total, about 45-50 RV dives..

But, I'm never going for max depth, and NEVER EVER feeling pressure on the chest.. If you feel pressure, you're diving too deep.

Nathan thanks for the elaborate answer. I need around 5 warm ups like you described. Lets see if i can improve it with your advice. I dont think i ll try for deeper for now. How long apart are your sessions?

 

[Nathan Vinski]

Nathan thanks for the elaborate answer. I need around 5 warm ups like you described. Lets see if i can improve it with your advice. I dont think i ll try for deeper for now. How long apart are your sessions?

If I have the time, I'll do RV 1 in every 3-4 sessions.. so everything undescribed takes about 2 months.

But during that time I'm also doing brrathhold work in the pool, and other technique stuff in depth..

If I "had to" I'd do most of the RV stuff back to back.. but it takes quite long to recover from.. so maybe only 3 times a week maximum..

 

[xristos]

about 20..

On session 1 I work up to 12m in about 5 dives
then work up to 15m on session 2 in about 5
then work up to 17m on session 3 in about 5
then session 4 I do 3x15m, 1x18, 1x20

I usually stop at 20m, and this 'program' is just what works for me.. I know I can do these depths safely, and without any sensation of chest pressure.

However, 'my RV training' only starts at this point.

The 'real' test of pressure & equalization fitness in my opinion, is if I can do 20m RV without any warm-ups and no sensation of pressure on the chest.

This takes about 5-6 sessions (copy of session #4) and then 2-3 sessions attempting 20m on dive 1. (last time I did 18, 18, then finally 20 no warm up on the 3rd session).

So total, about 45-50 RV dives..

But, I'm never going for max depth, and NEVER EVER feeling pressure on the chest.. If you feel pressure, you're diving too deep.

Do you get that feeling at 1st 2nd dive like your heart has stopped your legs have departed from your body and loosing the mouthfill or tensing up is imminent ? Does this stop or you learn to manage it ?

 

[Nathan Vinski]

Do you get that feeling at 1st 2nd dive like your heart has stopped your legs have departed from your body and loosing the mouthfill or tensing up is imminent ? Does this stop or you learn to manage it ?

No..

Sounds to me like you're pushing too deep too fast.. RV dives should always stop before any kind of discomfort..

 

[xristos]

But this is like 4 meter deep. Then dives get much easier. I hit 21m #6 dives later.
I guess I will repeat and repeat and most likely i will get used to the shock of the first dive.

 

[Nathan Vinski]

But this is like 4 meter deep. Then dives get much easier. I hit 21m #6 dives later.
I guess I will repeat and repeat and most likely i will get used to the shock of the first dive.

Just to give some additional advice with this... I've not asked your PB; but it's very relevant with this type of training and could explain the sensations).

I've been working on some projects: and one area is developing standards for RV training.

**I know there's no 'math' for freediving.. but I've tried my best to use logic to make this as safe and practical as possible..

For exhale training, you need to make sure that the stimulus is relevant to your goal (and) not exceeding what you're ready for (from an absolute level perspective).

IN short, these are my recommendations..

For divers training for a goal of up to 50m: Perform FRC dives UP TO 50% of your goal depth..
For divers training for a goal between 50m & 80m: Perform RV dives up to 25% of your goal depth..
For divers training for a goal of +80m: Develop a 20m 'no-warm-up' RV dive.

Up to 5 RV dives 10m or less,
up to 3 RV dives between 10 and 15
1-2 RV dives between 15 and 20m (only 2 if first dive is 15+.. )

--

So basically.. If you've not achieved 50m yet... RV is too challenging..

If you've not achieved (about) 70+ yet.. 20m RV is too challenging

by *challenging* I mean, could be too much too soon, and even if you can technically do it, instead of adapting, you might suffer some 'push-back' from your body/nervous system (explaining some of the initial sensations you reported).

 

[xristos]

Very intersting piece of advice. After your previous message I dialed back my last dive session to what felt absolutely no stress so 15m max. But I did do seriously more dives than you suggest so I will keep that in check as well.
As for the Frc for less deep divers, it's not so practical because I don't want to be annoyance to boats or even risk being hit so will consider. Why are you so strict on the # of dives? Is it bad idea to do eg 6 10 13 15 10 10 10 10

 

[Nathan Vinski]

Very intersting piece of advice. After your previous message I dialed back my last dive session to what felt absolutely no stress so 15m max. But I did do seriously more dives than you suggest so I will keep that in check as well.
As for the Frc for less deep divers, it's not so practical because I don't want to be annoyance to boats or even risk being hit so will consider. Why are you so strict on the # of dives? Is it bad idea to do eg 6 10 13 15 10 10 10 10

I spoke in depth with Aharon Solomons about this.. He has plenty of experience with RV training and came to similar conclusion that more than 5 is a lot, and then having a similar volume-decay to what I said.. depending on depth achieved.

The reasoning is that, any dive (literally) below your RV causes some 'micro-damages' to the lungs (comets on ultrasound), and strong bloodshift (may) cause free-radical damage (this is debatable but there strong logic to the argument).

Point is. If you over-stress the body you will not 'adapt' because you spend all your adaptive energy on recovering BACK to baseline, instead of recovering and having supercompensation ABOVE baseline.

Aharon's opinion (where I differ) is that FRC is completely useless & that you should only do RV after achieving 50-60m. His reasoning is that until you can do 50-60.. even 3m on RV is so much more pulmonary stress than you've ever experienced, and that this can cause the above issues i mentioned with adaptation.

My opinion (building on Aharon's, which is how things develop) is that you can bridge the gap to RV, by doing FRC dives to about 1/2 your PB or goal, until you reach about 50.. (so FRC up to 25m before transitioning).. This will give an 'entry' into exhale diving (so your ready by the time you get to 50 and can use RV) and is an effective way to train Frenzel and beginner-mouthfill when it's applicable to this level (let's say 30-50m)..

Again for adaptive issues (why I have my intensity -decays: 20m no warm up RV for +80, 25% of your goal on RV (50-80m) is because any exhale (RV & FRC) is more 'aggressive' (purely in term of compression,) than full lungs diving.. This is why it works, but also why you shouldn't go 'significantly' past your goal lung volume..

Example: Goal to dive to 60m = 1/7th TLC
20-25% = 12-15m RV = about 1/8-9th TLC (which is already more than you 'need'.. but this surplus can be useful once you start adding in other factors like CO2..)

But if you were to do 20m RV= about 1/12th TLC.. this is a bit too much stress in my opinion.

 

[xristos]

I spoke in depth with Aharon Solomons about this.. He has plenty of experience with RV training and came to similar conclusion that more than 5 is a lot, and then having a similar volume-decay to what I said.. depending on depth achieved.

The reasoning is that, any dive (literally) below your RV causes some 'micro-damages' to the lungs (comets on ultrasound), and strong bloodshift (may) cause free-radical damage (this is debatable but there strong logic to the argument).

Point is. If you over-stress the body you will not 'adapt' because you spend all your adaptive energy on recovering BACK to baseline, instead of recovering and having supercompensation ABOVE baseline.

Aharon's opinion (where I differ) is that FRC is completely useless & that you should only do RV after achieving 50-60m. His reasoning is that until you can do 50-60.. even 3m on RV is so much more pulmonary stress than you've ever experienced, and that this can cause the above issues i mentioned with adaptation.

My opinion (building on Aharon's, which is how things develop) is that you can bridge the gap to RV, by doing FRC dives to about 1/2 your PB or goal, until you reach about 50.. (so FRC up to 25m before transitioning).. This will give an 'entry' into exhale diving (so your ready by the time you get to 50 and can use RV) and is an effective way to train Frenzel and beginner-mouthfill when it's applicable to this level (let's say 30-50m)..

Again for adaptive issues (why I have my intensity -decays: 20m no warm up RV for +80, 25% of your goal on RV (50-80m) is because any exhale (RV & FRC) is more 'aggressive' (purely in term of compression,) than full lungs diving.. This is why it works, but also why you shouldn't go 'significantly' past your goal lung volume..

Example: Goal to dive to 60m = 1/7th TLC
20-25% = 12-15m RV = about 1/8-9th TLC (which is already more than you 'need'.. but this surplus can be useful once you start adding in other factors like CO2..)

But if you were to do 20m RV= about 1/12th TLC.. this is a bit too much stress in my opinion.

I think you are spot on . I did 4 years ago try rv after hearing some aharon webinar advice and i felt it was ridiculously uncomfortable and said to myself okay lets try frc not bail out completely. And it worked, that summer i enjoyed a lot the frc dives and benefited in my full lung diving. I will dial the volume down and will update you. Glad hearing from you always wealth of knowledge shared whole heartedly!