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Mares Mirage

Thread Status: Hello , There was no answer in this thread for more than 60 days.
It can take a long time to get an up-to-date response or contact with relevant users.
Hello Danilo,
And welcome to the thread
Very interesting to hear about your modifications and if I understand correctly you actually made the pre-loading/pumping barrel with an inner diameter of 9mm? I am really considering this modification myself.
Especially since the shooting barrel might end up being 12mm instead of the original 13mm (that is the size of SS barrel that is offered by the person I am talking to about the modification).
But this means I would need to run the gun at higher pressure than with a 13mm piston and the result will be that pre-pumping it will get harder to. So, a solution would be to reduce the bore of the pumping barrel. Good to hear someone has done this before

How long are your Mirages, especially your longest?
 
Got you and thanks for making me understand it. As I looked at it, I felt that the room is there (in the newer bulkheads) but forgot about the "direction" of high pressure and whether a threaded bushing should hold that pressure or just the spring force.
 
Hi Gecko, many tks for your welcome.......
...yes I made same Mirages as long as 120cms but they can be as long as you desire, with lower barrel 9mm inner and 13mm outer....just to lower the weight of the gun.....
 
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Hi Gecko, many tks for your welcome.......
...yes I made same Mirages as long as 120cms but they can be as long as you desire, with lower barrel 9mm inner and 13mm outer....just to lower the weight of the gun.....
Good to hear someone did this before. The gun has been around for a long time and is a good candidate for a long gun.
Personally, I am thinking of something around 120-130 to replace my One Air 120.
Did you use a Supersten 120 barrel or a modified Seac barrel for your 120 gun?
 
...I have a small lathe but it's enough to build barrels and make many other small works so I use to buy 6mt aluminum barrels, cut them and making all slots and works needed etc etc......
 
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The oil should not influence the power of the gun as it pushes through the holes very quickly, like paint from a spray gun, only the SAE 10 viscosity oil is much thinner than any paint. When you do the test with the rear of the gun depressurized after conducting five strokes of the pumping barrel and the selector knob being flipped up the inner barrel, pre-chamber (interior spaces of the handle and the well inside the partitioning bulkhead, if there is one) and the pumping barrel have very little air pressure inside them until the transfer port unplugs. This is the situation with the spear yet to be inserted in the main barrel. The high pressure air has all been stored in the front tank, but with the transfer port open it rushes through into the pre-chamber where some of it moves through the rectangular channel in the handle to fill the inner barrel and some of it moves through the small hole at the front of the rectangular channel to access the inlet valve of the pumping barrel to refill that barrel. The gurgling noises that you can hear is the pumping barrel pressure equalizing with the pressure in the front tank as the pressure throughout the entire gun equalizes, the pumping barrel having a ball type inlet valve and an expanding rubber tube outlet valve. Air is moving internally with high velocity initially, but that falls off as the pressure differentials inside the gun disappear.

When the gun actually shoots you can never hear it, but the same equalizing action goes on in the pumping barrel. As "cocked to shoot" pressure departs the front tank the same pressure inside the pumping barrel can only participate in the shot by opening the rubber tube valve as it cannot flow back through the pumping barrel's inlet valve, so as the gun equalizes its internal volumes back to initial charge pressure the pumping barrel valves are working because the pumping barrel is isolated by its two valves from the other spaces inside the gun which are all interconnected with the transfer port open. In a sense the interior of the pumping barrel lags behind the shot, but only when the pressure imbalances are getting smaller and the valves are resisting opening due to their "springs". Of course with no oil in the gun you will not hear anything, but don't confuse these gurgling noises with airflow restriction except at low pressure differentials when the shaft will have already left the gun. The rubber tube valve operates every time the "Mirage" shoots except when taking a shot with the selector knob in position #1 as then the front tank and pumping barrel are both isolated.

Very interesting to hear of your longer gun conversions which means you have access to the tubing needed. Many years ago I looked for such alloy tubing here, but nothing was available in the diameters required, or the grade of alloy and I gave up on the idea of building a different type of pneumatic gun (not a "Mirage"!).

The improvements to breathing in the "Mirage" were probably also known to Mares, but they had to create shapes that could be extracted from the moulding die and that eliminates any undercuts inside the handle to add recessed grooves. Wall thickness needs to be considered as at 40 bar they could not risk the plastic components bursting, so bar the blind ended holes the "Mirage" handle moulding is rather solid in construction. The rear end of the early inner barrel is somewhat different to that in the later guns as Mares tried improving the breathing there with a larger rectangular opening, but the limitation was really the cross-section of the rectangular channel as its floor is elevated by the presence of the support structure for the pumping barrel inlet valve seat. As for economic reasons guns have to be churned out quickly there was no time for hand working of components, thus the only post-moulding work on the handle is the small connecting hole in the floor of the rectangular channel creating an air pathway to the pumping barrel inlet valve. It ingeniously makes use of what is one of the blind ended holes created by the withdrawing moulding die inserts, they just had to put a plug with a hole in it to create the valve seat at the front of that blind hole.

What the revised "Mirage" needed was a completely new rear handle, but the easiest thing to change was the partitioning bulkhead and then they could still use most of the existing components, although the inner barrel is different as the "O" ring grooves are in different positions. It is possible Mares could make a completely new "Mirage" based on the "Cyrano Evo" handle and main barrel, but they would need a different partitioning bulkhead and of course the inner barrel would need to be of a larger diameter. However given the emergence of vacuum barrels and the increasing reluctance to create very high pressure guns a new "Mirage" is less likely as there needs to be enough demand to justify the production in terms of the cost in producing the gun and what price the gun would sell for. The "Mirage" when first released here was twice the price of anything else from Mares in terms of their rear handle pneumatic guns and was seen as being too short, but the "Mirage" was then offered as a compact, yet powerful gun (refer to the original documentation). Unfortunately it was not as my "Sten" at high pressure, but under 40 bar, could outshoot it, but I put that down to the "Sten" being a longer gun. That is why largely unused "Mirage" guns went into storage, joining the leaking examples that owners had given up on.
 

I understand that you have provided a second "rectangular" (but with curved roof and floor) breathing channel on top of the inner barrel by removing material from the "ceiling" of the plastic handle and taking away metal from the adjacent top of the metal barrel tube which is a very neat way to make a larger alternative channel without significantly weakening the structure of the gun. I was never tempted to modify my gun as the flat rear partitioning bulkhead imposed the main limitation of the curved side channel on the gun's breathing and the brass regulator piston ideally should have retracted even further back into the handle, but that would have required a longer selector gate with more forward travel length in order to plug the transfer port.

Did you ever consider using the existing blind ended holes and curving a vertical track in the handle moulding on the right hand side to reach up to a new breather hole in the top of the inner barrel? I have not measured it to specifically check, but as on the left hand side we have the recess of the selector gate in the handle moulding and thus maybe some material to spare on the opposite side to remove for such an internal track that the gun would not be weakened in terms of containing high pressure. In my gun the selector rod length is 8.8 cm, not including the selector knob shaft extension, with the brass regulator piston face close to the front of the handle, while the blind ended hole on the opposite side paralleling the power selector shaft tunnel is 8 cm deep, so the locations align transversely within about a centimetre.
 
Pete,
I have never wanted to touch the handle at all...I just removed material from the upper side of the barrel....in case you want to sell it you can easily find a spare barrel but if you touch the handle the gun become unsaleable.....anyway, according to my experience there is not need to enlarge airtransfer holes as much as people usually think....I base my convinctions on some tests I have made with my Chrony cronograph above the water surface.... and I'm going to make some more to prove (or not) the validity of my home made power reductor device...I'll post the video...
 
OK, I misread "the recess should pass the handle" as material coming off the handle followed by a break in your sentence where you then mention the recess in the top of the barrel being milled 1 mm deep as being two different things.

I understand that internal flow ports don't have to be as large as the inner barrel bore in terms of their cross-sectional area, although they do in hydropneumatic guns as water is incompressible. You can have some port size restrictions in pneumatic guns without greatly affecting the power of the shot, in fact most guns are somewhat flow restricted and experience has probably determined the size of the ports where air crosses boundaries inside the gun and still produces an acceptable shot. A prime example is the mechanism slot and the associated breather hole in the top of the inner barrel tube where compressed air enters from the outer tank during the shot. However these ports are only short constrictions in terms of passing through the thickness of a boundary wall, it is not like breathing through a drinking straw where the constriction is present over a much longer travel distance. The "Mirage" handle has such a long constriction in the form of the rectangular channel and, as we have discussed, no breather hole in the inner barrel tube, until you added one.

To look at an example of the effect of port sizes you only have to look at the power regulator in a "Seabear", "low power" is a port the size of a pin hole, "high power" is a port of a few millimetres diameter, yet the gun gives a powerful shot when pumped up to high pressure, so a short constriction is not as restrictive to the airflow as one where a longer narrow passage has to be traversed.

Are people buying these converted "Mirage" guns or do you just have a selection of them available for your own use?
 
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....no, I don't think there is a market for them...... if you go to a mechanic who has a mill in his laboratory you can have the work done for few dollars...
 
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....no, I don't think there is a market for them...... if you go to a mechanic who has a mill in his laboratory you can have the work done for few dollars...
Yeah, kinda... You are definitely right about the tools and skills needed. But say, you live in Denmark or some other country with high salaries - if you don't know the machinist personally, it can cost a small fortune;-)

I am Danish, but live in China and here you would think I could get such things done on the cheap but truth be told, I am having a very hard time finding someone who can help with all the little projects I come up with from time to time. If they have the skills, they don't like one-off orders. To them, it is kinda a waste of time. They'd rather make 100 or 1000s of the same thing. Or they just don't have the skills or mindset to work to tighter tolerances and want to just do the quickest job possible.
I know there has to be one guy out there. I just need to find him

@DANILO020 , I sent you a personal message through this forum a few days ago. Should be in your inbox on the top right of the page.
 
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You could always file the metal away if you were careful, maybe even a series of flats around the tubing that reach forwards to emerge from the handle moulding and connect up at the rear to feed a new breather hole on top of the tube. If you hold the barrel tube in a vice between wooden blocks the tube should stay in place while you work the file.
 
Speaking of breather holes in the top of inner barrel tubes, does the Mares "Cyrano Evo" have one? Like the "Mirage" the "Cyrano Evo" has a high mounted inner barrel, but I have never seen inside one to find out how the air flows through that gun during the shot.
 
Here is a view of the breather holes (above the sear lever) in the "Cyrano Evo" schematic drawing for the cylindrical tank model of the gun.
 

This is a sketch the power regulator of my Mirage:



This is different model from that on image of Daving Gecko!
I am not sure about the original O-ring dimensions for this Mirage, but it was leaking with the O-ring from Mares spare O-rings kit (3.68 x 1.78 mm). Maybe it would not leak on pressure above 18 bar. In that case OR 3,68 x 1.78 might work as a floating O-ring!? But on low pressure it leaks! Because of that I've put OR 4 x 2 mm.
 
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Hey Pete, and others.
Something slightly interesting just happened. I was inquiring about buying another second hand Mirage from a guy in Italy. I know he has had more than a few through his hands over the years and I just wanted to make sure that I was not looking at the version with the short bulkhead that Pete has. Mostly because I want to be able to interchange all my Mirage parts and I only have the latter versions so far.

Thing is, the seller totally denied that the shorter version even existed. I sent him pics and still, he was on the fence. Point is, he had never seen or heard of that version, so I am beginning to think it is quite rare;-). Perhaps an extremely early production run?
 
There were plenty of them when they tried to get rid of them here for $50 each, remember they were originally $200 plus, as I saw about 6 in all and all were leaking copious amounts of oil. No one was interested as few were game enough to fix one and the distributor was not that amenable to providing parts to "Joe Public", or fixing guns unless under warranty and sold by a dive store outlet. The "Mirage" guns being sold then were from McEwans, a hardware store with some camping and outdoor products and there was a brief foray into Mares products (a job lot maybe). I also purchased 4 hand loaders there and have lost all but one of that type, a skinny thing with little bulk to it. With no buyers the early "Mirage" guns may have been trashed. The way to pick the early gun will be by the serial numbers embossed on the handle's butt, my Mirage's serial number is 67787. It also has a bronze coloured tank, the other Mirage guns were a darker shade and had a bump on top of their folding levers. Still in pieces I could photograph every inch of it if anyone wants proof of its existence as a type. That gun has spent more years rattling around in drawers than being assembled and I must have pulled it apart about 5 times to fix it by now. The performance was not exceptional and at 80 cm was too short. The later Mirage was never sold here, in fact it was only through this forum that I found that a later version was produced. By the way the milled flat on the top of the barrel solution will not work on the early gun to improve the breathing as it will be blocked by the flat rear face of the bulkhead as it has no inner well for air to flow into.
 
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Ah, interesting that they dropped the price that much. Pity it was such an uphill battle getting it to work.
Yeah, I sent the guy in question two of your pics. He really did not want to believe they existed and categorically denied it, haha. Dunno if he still thinks, it is not factory spec but a user mod.

Does seem that Mares reacted to it fairly soon as the V2 bulkhead is found in early red handles, too.

Thanks, as always, for elaborating.
 
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Here is a more detailed explanation what I did regarding air leakage on my Mirage 70.



On image a) was the situation when I put O-ring 3.68 x 1.78, I suppose for power regulator shaft from Mares spare O-ring kit? I can not remember exactly. I was just preparing to go on my vacation so I had not time to examine how it would work. I supposed fine because it was O-ring for other Mares spearguns like Cyrano... But it was leaking air as soon as I pressurized the gun. I needed quick remedy so I wrapped some teflon tape around the O-ring and it solved the problem for next 15 day on the sea. There was no air leakage!

After returned back from my holiday I dismounted the Mirage and took more precise measurement of relevant partes in power regulator.
I find out that O-ring 4 x 2 might solve the problem, image b).
 
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