Monofin divers????

[teppo]

whales, shapes, patents

At first, at last we have a lively thread about a monofin!
I feel this conversation VERY interesting.

With torbulence I meant also the torbulense after the diver. With long and narrow mono, or bi-fins/dolphinkicks the blade(s) is still in the torbulence after the diver. But when the monoblade is wide, the wide areas are in torbulence free water.
Longer monoblade feels good in freediving, but to turn in the end of a pool is more difficult.
As far as I am considered the freedivers monofin should be as wide as finswimming monos, but longer.

A monofin is still an artificial fin. I don't know do marine mammals have senses and muscles in the blade area of their fins, but if they have, they can adjust the muscle power in various parts of the blade when needed.
About wide and short monofin, I quess it would bend in wrong direction, pushing the water sideways.

Blade shape patents, does not sound good, just like having software algorithms patented!

 

[andrsn]

kick efficiency

hey guys,

(preface: this is kinda off the subject of monofins, but swimming with guns, it's kinda hard to pull yourself throught the water with your arms. hunting is not something you want to get your whole body into)

deeper blue is the first place i've heard of people really using the mono's to their advantage. i'm in both stiffnesses of the cressi gara's. i've learned from several fish on how to increase my speed/efficiency. really, i sh%$ you not. when we hunt mutton snapper they have a way of bursting out flutter kicks... gliding... flutter kicks... then more gliding. it's not a continuous kick. and, they haul ass! it actually makes a cool sound, cause they do it so intensely. but it's for such a short time, i don't imagine they use a significant amount of energy.

well, we've tried it. using bi-fins(and this is the only way i'm considered bi) we just try to kick out short, powerful sweeps. maybe three of them, then coast. this is the only way i get to the surface, now. it's awesome, powerful, and the time you get to coast is a great time to transfer energy stores.

being an engineer(please forgive me) i've thought about how in every type of medium there is a terminal velocity sort of effect. well, everyone knows that certain fish are more adapted to swimming at speed than others. so i figure that dependant on personal hydrodynamics, you should have a sort of hysteresis curve on your speed v. energy. this means.... please bear with me... that as you increase your kick speed/power you will increase your relative velocity(swim speed). and, if you think about having an unlimited amount of energy and you do use it, there will only be a certain max speed you could possibly attain underwater. lost anyone yet?

but, we don't have an unlimited energy supply. we're actually trying to conserve our energy. and we're stingy! you think that's stingy, try working on the power supply systems on satellites! but, back to speed v. energy... as we slowly increase our kicking energy we should slowly get a proportional response in our speed. there comes a point in time where the amount of energy we're increasing by is not resulting in as much speed increase. this is called saturation. for example, if your car didn't have a floorboard to stop the accelerator, do you actually think your car would go faster? or do you think that if you powered a ceiling fan with 220V instead of it's required 110V it would spin twice as fast? no to both. so, everyone's going to have a certain speed with a certain type of fin where they're at max speed without wasting energy. it means that they're getting a linear response to their energy input.

when we're chasing a fish, we can close the gap quickly with these flutter kicks, without looking like we're going nuts. it seems like we're jumping up to a faster pace, then using the momentum to glide. when we start to slow, another burst of flutterkicks. the fish don't notice anymore effort on our part and next thing you know, we're in range. bamm! gotchya!

also remember that there are different types of muscle fibers that range in aerobic characteristics. white(fast twitch) fibers are completely anaerobic as opposed to red(slow twitch) fibers which are packed with capillaries and require the big 02. black athletes have a larger percentage of white fibers than white athletes(on average). that's why you see that the majority of olympic sprinters are black, and the majority of marathon runners are white. the ability to oxygenate red fibers is much easier than recharging white fibers. all has to do with stamina. i think this may also have something to do with efficiency, although oxygen is a key component in that kreb cycle thingy we learned in biology101. anyways, half of this seems about 80% logical. just thought i'd share.


alright, back to work...

later,
anderson

ps. i'll be posting my thoughts on spearfishing with mono's later. i have quite a bit to comment on that.

 

[thin_air]

when we're chasing a fish, we can close the gap quickly with these flutter kicks, without looking like we're going nuts. it seems like we're jumping up to a faster pace, then using the momentum to glide. when we start to slow, another burst of flutterkicks. the fish don't notice anymore effort on our part and next thing you know, we're in range. bamm! gotchya!

so this is what i get

1.monofins are efficient

2.flutter kick accelerates fast while not being as efficent (this i got from the quote above)

please tell me if im wrong

vince

 

[andrsn]

spearing & monos

i've never been in the water with mono's. i have learned that you can crank up some speed dolphin kicking with bi's, though. especially without a gun and using your hands and arms.

the things i see that would hinder spearing with a mono on:

- profile... that's alot of surface area!

Originally posted by laminar
seeing a black shape with a monofin in bad viz could panic a Scuba diver, I suppose.

- agility in tight places like reef hunting

Originally posted by teppo
Longer monoblade feels good in freediving, but to turn in the end of a pool is more difficult.

- subtle maneuverability... (and this one i'd like some feedback on) with two fins, ruddering seems much easier without displacing your front profile to what ever you're sneaking up on.

the entire art of spearfishing is the act of getting as close to a fish as possible without them realizing that you're trying to impale them with a huge metal spear. or, to ambush them with either disguise or tactical maneuvering. it seems that when we're tracking a fish (and everything within 30m knows you're in the water already) we wait until it's not looking or is out of view to close the distance between us. as soon as we're back in sight or it's attentive to us again, we stop... look the other way, start whistling, scratch are head, etc... then peak back to see when it's safe to resume pursuit. you don't want to go lifeless(suspicious these critters get!) but you don't want to make any more advances in their direction when they're eyeballin' you.

it would seem that the monofin changes your swimming pattern totally. your vertical profile from the font is going to be going up and down (i would assume). most of the time we're on the surface trying to get a good angle on the fish(up current/sunside). i'd like to hear how it is on the surface with these things.

the more i think of it, the reef seems to be out of the question and considering bluewater... yeah that wouldn't be great either. i would imagine that you'd be limited to midwater species (mackerel, small kings). i don't see a monofinner being able to pull a grouper out of a hole nor tether a floatline with a sounding pelagic on the end. the ability to balance/brace yourself on or above the bottom is a key component in the sport. i guess if you were a nimble little dude with the mono, then you'd have an advantage over beginners, but your prey would be very limited in what you could handle.

i'm still extremely intrigued on using the mono. i'm planning on buying the finis rapid mono when i go to s.florida next week for my spearing extravaganza. i know it's not the professional version but it's relatively cheap, and should give me an idea on how they are. respond please if this is a bad idea.


later everyone,
anderson

S.C.U.B.A. (Severely Challenged Underwater Bubble Addicts)

 

[andrsn]

Originally posted by thin_air
2.flutter kick accelerates fast while not being as efficent (this i got from the quote above)

energy-wise, short quick bursts are so much more efficient than long hard trudging strokes when trying to attain speed with bi's and a gun in your hand. the technique would be hard to compare to a mono, being that you are toting a gun. i'm sure bare fins comparison would favor the mono, but we're considering spearing here.

andrsn

 

[Uli]

What I would like to know from the monofin-jedis:

-How uniform is your speed from kick to kick?
Is it a smooth "undulateundulateundulate..." or more like "kick-relax-kick-relax"? I think Peter had a comment on that.
(The background of this question is, that when I dive with bi-fins and a dolphin kick it seems that there is a moment of maximum thrust when I start to stretch the knees. Is this just because of poor technique or a more general problem? Does this have anything to do with the difference between ondulating and ondulating reverse as described on www.mat-mas.com ?)

-Is there a difference in monofin technique when doing dynamic compared to constant?

-Doing constant weight: Are you using the same speed going down and going up? (Or do you limit the descend velocity for better equalization?)

Many thanks in advance!

Uli

 

[snorklebum]

Monfins are faster, they get you deeper, they are more efficient. I'd say they also require a faily complete retraining of the body, different muscle groups, etc.
Mas fins are pretty much like dolphin or tuna fins.
I have some links to fin manufacturers and retailers on my under-construction website
http://www.stormpages.com/snorklebum/Actfin.htm

 

[Paulo Almeida]

Hi,

Despite I am a new user of monofins (I began with it a couple of months ago) I've already tried spearfishing with them. In the day there were a strong current at the botton and were really hard to keep myself steady in front of a hole to look for groupers.

Even with there were no current, my impression is that with monofin is harder to get closer to the fish, because it requires bigger movements and don't allow you to change your direction as faster as if you were with bi-fins.

In the pool I think that it is fantastic ! I really enjoy training with monofins. My max. distance is almost the same with mono and with normal fins.

Do you have difference between your performances with monofins and normal fins ?? What is it (%) ?

regards,
Paulo

 

[snorklebum]

Sounds like a mermaid suit. I once saw a special snorkel for monofinning, which when straight up from the mouth, between the eyes, then back over the forehead. Supposedly developed because the velocity and power of fin swimming is so strong it pulls off conventional snorkels.
Actually I thought the "middle" type snorkle had a lot of advantages, but haven't seen one for sale. Anybody know who carries them?

 

[efattah]

Front Mounted Snorkels

Finis sells front mounted snorkels. They are nice in the sense that they stay put and don't vibrate, but you can only see out of one eye at a time because the snorkel always blocks your vision.

Eric Fattah
BC, Canada

 

[Cragrat]

Just to add to Eric's response, you can find pricing and details here for the snorkel:

http://www.bodytrends.com/finsno.htm

and the Finis site here:

http://www.finis-net.com/

of the two sites the first one is better. It is pretty comfortable (the snorkle) but I received numerous second looks getting out of the pool with it on.

If you are thinking about getting a monofin do not get the Finis Rapid (the one with the adjustable buckles). I had one and I do not recommend it for freediving; lap swimming sure.

I'm currently looking for a new one if anyone has any suggestions.

Cragrat aka David Nesbitt
Ottawa, ON
Canada

 

[Cragrat]

Another Monofin Company for your list Snorklebum:

Europalmus
French: http://www.wedoo.com/cgi-bin/sport/out.cgi?europalmus
English: http://www.europalmus.com/uk/index.phtml
Their is more information on the French side of the site than the English. They even have a funky spring loaded nose plugs.

I saw them on the DiveInn site (www.diveInn.com), noticed they weren't on your list.

David Nesbitt aka Cragrat
Ottawa, ON
Canada

 

[Lynn]

Mono!

Hi there,

Monofinning is the fastest and in some cases also the most energy-conserving way of swimming under water. I use a long-distance Russian carbon monofin and it is absolutely THE BEST.
One thing you have to bring into account when buying these hand-made fins is that each fin has its own character: the more lines on the blade, the less stiff it will be. So try before you buy!
For freediving or spearfishing I would recommend a long-distance mono. The stiffer medium-distance blade will increase your metabolism in such a way that you'll find yourself out of oxygen long before you've seen the bottom, and the sprint fin is entirely out of the question (unless you're competing in the 50m or 100m sprint at an international level).

Cheers,
Lynn

(monofin addict)

 

[teppo]

russian carbon ???

Lynn,
who in Russia is building carbon monos?
I know russians are a real propellerheads when we talk about exotic materials (for example titanium), but I have never heard they can do carbon fins!
I am VERY interested !!!

In Sebak (Estonia) they said they shall build carbon monos after next millenium (year 3000).

 

[Lynn]

Russian carbon monos

The mono I bought some years ago was hand-made by people of the Ukrainian National finswimming team. I tested and bought it at the monofin (openwater) races in Hasselt, Belgium.

I might be able to track them down via my former finswimming coach, but that would take some time (I'm not very often in Belgium anymore). And I don't think that the Ukrainian team has a website...

Mat mas fins are also very good, but you should fit them with an other footpocket. (Personally I think the Mat Mas footpockets aren't very good.)

Lynn

Important correction to my last reply (Mono !): the fin I have is not a carbon monofin. (Translation mistake, OOPS, sorry about that !) :head

 

[Lynn]

more monofins

Hello,

I have found some adresses of Russian and Ukrainian monofin builders/importers for you but I don't know whether they have carbon monos or only glassfiber ones.

Roland Kanters (a dutch guy) imports russian fins to Holland. He can offer very competitive prices on monofins at most grades.

ROLANDKANTERS@hetnet.nl

Waterway Co.:
Waterway's fins are true competition fins as well as excellent training fins.

Bogdan Lyashuk.
+ 380 044 5700811 fax./tel.
lyashuk@waterway.kiev.ua
http://www.waterway.com.ua/

Henx Monofins (Akwa Sports)
Henk Greupink has been making monofins for most of his finning career and is now making them commercially. He uses the highest quality fibreglass and monocot shoes. His training fins are now being used by the Australian Institute of Sport and have been used by Alex Popov amongst others.

Akwa Sports, PO Box 113, Rotorua, New Zealand.
Phone/fax 0011 647 348 9491
akwasports@clear.net.nz

Sales of finswimming equipment in Latvia:
aqua-tec@junik.lv

Besides Mat-Mas does have carbon monos: www.mat-mas.com.

If you're into innovative organic looking fins, you should take a peek at this website!
http://home-1.worldonline.nl/~hbsmits/dolph.htm

Finally, here's a very complete website on finswimming (many links to training associations and equipment sales):
http://finswimming.links.free.fr/
(And they do have an English version...)


Regards,
Lynn

(I hope you will find that carbon mono now, Teppo)

 

[snorklebum]

Man, that guy with the dophin suits is my new hero! Thanks for the link, Lynn

(The http://home-1.worldonline.nl/~hbsmits/dolph.htm one, that is.)

I have seen the future and it probably works.

 

[teppo]

sebak monoproto test

Freediving team of Finland has tested 3 Sebak protos.
see: www.freedivingfinland.net

 

[Bill]

wing shape

Does anyone know about a skinny mono fin design? Something like Delphin or dolfin.

Aloha
Bill

 

[TNdiver]

I know this thread is old, but i think its a good one. I think part of the reason that a fish is so efficient with a smaller fin, is that they are much more streamlined that we could ever realisticly hope to be. I am sure the compisition of their muscle is completely different, and suited to that type of movement better, so the determining factors for what is efficient would be completely different. Also in regard to dolphin kicking with a mono vs. regular fins, i think in general mono fins would have a larger surface area overall than a pair of bi's. I assume that if bi fins had that much area, they would be to much of a struggle for one leg to work with. The advantage of the dolphin kick over bi-finning, is that the abs and other muscles are used rather than just the legs and by more muscle providing the power, more resistance can be overcome.