Moving past 75 meters

[azapa]

It's likely that this isn't helping. Even weight training hurts my apnea pretty badly, presumably because of the increase in RMR. It'd be interesting to see how you went if you ditched all the other exercise and just did apnea for a month or two.

Dave, you are worrying me. I have just started my personal campaign to get in shape for VB2012, and that has included the Gym, that I am quite enjoying. 20mins of elliptical flat out, pull downs, fly, row, pullovers, abs. I told the trainer that I needed chest flexibility etc and was not looking to be a muscle head. I still do yoga, but only once a week.

How did the weights hurt your apnea? Am I barking up the wrong tree?

 

[azapa]

Canetoad Films,

I hardly have any lactic acid build up. I need to come up because I'm on the verge of samba, but my body is almost lactic acid free.

Kars, same here. I believe you cycle a lot (i remember we talked about this before). I have never had lactic in a pool. The only strange feeling I had was when i just started no-warm up dives for max attempts: I would feel the blood shunt and hollow legs after the dive. That has now gone completely, unfortunately.

Two things have happened here in my case, I think:
- I cycle so much that my legs are becoming "lactic proof"
- I have got used to no-warm up dives and no longer feel the effects.

The end result is I can quite easily swim to a heavy samba on every dive, and feel no lactic at all. The unfortunate thing is my meager pool PB has not improved in over a year.

 

[Apneaddict]

Dave, you are worrying me. I have just started my personal campaign to get in shape for VB2012, and that has included the Gym, that I am quite enjoying. 20mins of elliptical flat out, pull downs, fly, row, pullovers, abs. I told the trainer that I needed chest flexibility etc and was not looking to be a muscle head. I still do yoga, but only once a week.

How did the weights hurt your apnea? Am I barking up the wrong tree?

I do a VERY heavy workout once every 2-weeks to keep my strength up and maintain muscle.

For the next 3-5 days I'm recovering and feeding that workout. After this, I am back to my regular apnea abilities and muscular relaxation.

Bodybuilders used to do high-rep "breathing squats" so that they were huffing and puffing... Then to pullovers across a flat bench to try to expand the rib cage. I can feel the expansion in the sternum. I have to believe that it can also be done with a full-lung and packing on breath-hold.

I would be careful with the 20mins of flat out cardio. I found it increases my metabolism and hurts my apnea. I don't exert anything an detrain for 2-3 weeks before a comp to slow my metab.

 

[growingupninja]

This is very interesting to me too, because for me on doing things like repeat 100M dynamics lactic acid is my limiting factor, yet I can do repeat 75's on a reasonable interval. I know it may be partially mental but I feel like there is more to it. I don't know what my max dynamic is, although for a 100M, O2 is not my limiting factor. I mostly pool train to make spearing more fun so I am interested in building dive stamina.

I recently read an article about a distance runner who had has DNA sequenced and discovered he had an uncommon mutation that dramatically reduced the amount of lactic acid produced by his muscles. A very long time ago when I used to be a competitive swimmer, I swam on teams with elite distance swimmers who could effortlessly even split a 1650 (just under a mile, which for a sprinter/middle distance guy like me was about the most grueling, lactic nightmare race imaginable). That means their time for each 100 would be the same as the last, and it was relatively close to their splits for the middle distance events such as the 200--which is really more of a sustained sprint for most adult swimmers. I don't doubt that they might have had the same mutation.

I suspect vasoconstriction has some effect on a lactic acid accumulation; I know that on a 75 I am not generating enough CO2 to get a large amount of vasoconstriction, but as I swim past that CO2 levels get high enough to cause significant vasoconstriction and maybe it starts to choke up.

What are good pool exercises/sets to help with lactic acid tolerance? Will apnea sprints help?

 

[Apneaddict]

If you can't get past 75m and you normally train in a 25m pool... Try it in a 50m pool.... I bet you get past 75 easily!

That should help to get you beyond the mental aspects of the magic 75#

 

[anthropisces]

I never sprint

 

[Mullins]

Dave, you are worrying me. I have just started my personal campaign to get in shape for VB2012, and that has included the Gym, that I am quite enjoying. 20mins of elliptical flat out, pull downs, fly, row, pullovers, abs. I told the trainer that I needed chest flexibility etc and was not looking to be a muscle head. I still do yoga, but only once a week.

How did the weights hurt your apnea? Am I barking up the wrong tree?

After several years of just freediving and losing heaps of strength, I thought I'd spend a bit of time getting it back. Well, some of it anyway. Partly to see what would happen, partly so that I can use this monofin, partly to fix up a patella tracking problem I've had for years (muscle imbalance from previous sports).

So for the last year or so I've been doing about 50/50 weights and apnea. The weights are fun and easy compared with freediving. I need to eat a lot more, freediving has become harder and have found myself hypoxic on swims that I previously found easy. So right now I wouldn't be in good shape for a comp. But I've yet to see what happens if I stop the weights completely and focus solely on apnea for a month or two. Hopefully the breathhold will come back and I will keep at least some of the strength. I know a couple of other freedivers who have had the same experience.

So if I was you, I'd stick with the weights but give myself a good few weeks of apnea-only training directly before the comp. I'd also aim for strength rather than hypertrophy.

 

[deepRelax]

I'm looking for freedivers experienced in pool training, who are themselves capable of routinely surpassing 100 meters in the pool to comment on this thread.
...
Can anyone offer any specific advice on how to move out to and beyond 100 meters?

Hi, you have to be confident in your self. From what you say, I'm sure you can do 105 m easily. To build up confidence you have to measure your self and understand/listen to your body. I measure my speed and count my kicks when doing dynamics in a pool. I also measure my dry max apnea walks in order to train safely (I train mostly alone). Than I compare both and try to repeat the time of a given dry performance in the water (though there are a lot of differences but it gives you an idea).
Furthermore, your block at 85-90 is, I think, your diving reflex that kicks in. It's a great thing. Try a 95m dive next time, than at another session a 99m one. If you still feel good, do a 100m + push, ...
When you master a distance (when you can do it anytime like Mullins said), you can try to add a couple of seconds or a kick, etc ...
Good luck.

 

[Tony Babowicz]

I'm looking for freedivers experienced in pool training, who are themselves capable of routinely surpassing 100 meters in the pool to comment on this thread.

Can anyone offer any specific advice on how to move out to and beyond 100 meters?

Hey, we are practically neighbors, I need a regular training partner, do I know you? I do lots of 100+ swims and can probably help. Where do you train?

 

[anthropisces]

Hi Tony. I'll send you a PM with my contact information.

 

[TheRichhr]

I think it may be because you need to vary your training a bit more. Like building strong muscles. A simple ex. If you're training you glutes and doing squats for a while, your muscles will get used to it. So immediatly your muscles are used to it switch to f.ex lunges, then hip raises etc. then start over with the first one and vary all the way. Do this with you strength training and also try holding your breath with and little air. You can also do it by switching up your swimming style so it will get harder. Then after a while you can focus only on you swimming style and your goal.

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[TheRichhr]

Had to write 2 messages for some reason.

It seems weird that you can swim 85% of max so many times. But maybe you need to expand your lunge capacity? Have you tried the expand a lunge? it works great i've heard, and you can train with it to(over water). I am getting one soon. I have experience with something like it, and it gave awsome results

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[tcrusson]

Can anyone offer any specific advice on how to move out to and beyond 100 meters?

From what you describe it looks like you just have a mental block, not limitations in your apnea. I've had quite a few in the past (coming up at 50 or 100 when trying to go for a big one), and never really found out why and how they unlocked.

Now I can't remember where I read this, but it may be something worth trying: if you come up at 85/90 because of anxiety, then you could try changing where you start in the pool, so you don't know where you are while swimming. For example start 13m away from the wall. Put a weight at the bottom to know when you reach 100m. This way you can focus on how it feels, instead of being just focused on reaching the wall.

I don't believe doing repeated 75m swim is going to be any helpful.

Other things you can try: make your training much harder than what you feel during the swim. For example very difficult tables, with repeated swim with only 10 or 20 seconds breathing towards the end of the table. or 10*25 meters with only one breath in between each swim.

Sprints are also a good idea, just to experience the lactic you only get at the end of the swim and be used to it.

Resting for a week before attempting a max can also help. Sometimes you bail out because you've overtrained, so you're not ready for a fight.

Contrary to what Dave is experiencing, I find it doesn't get physically easier at any point during the swim, for me it just gets progressively worse - until I give up because my legs hurt too much, because I've reached my PB and some, or because I bail out because I'm fucked up mentally. The only thing that gets easier sometimes is the mental part, when I get over the hump at 75/100 and fully commit to the swim.

Cheers,
Tanguy
Blog: Splash

 

[Kars]

Very nice summery Tanguy, Merci!

 

[Menny]

Very interesting thread.
anthropisces, do you use a nose clip in your sessions?
Also, I recommand that you stop using the snorkel while training in the pool, and change your shorts to a speedo to be more hydro dinamic.
I think that vary your training program is essential to get your goals, there are a variety of training programs in the manual of Umberto that I'm using.
One of my favorite exercises is the sprints.
I do 8 times 75 meters sprints with 2 minutes rest inbetween in a 25 meter pool. My heart rate rise and fall from 60-115 in the beginning, and rising towards the end of the session to 80-125. Amusingly, It's easier for me to do the 75 meter sprint then a slow 75 meter: In the slow 75, I feel my quadreceps full of lactic acid towards the end of the swim say around 60 and on, while in the sprint I don't feel any lactic acid at all. I think it's the matter of large quantity of white muscle fibers in my body and will be glad to hear any other opinions.
Anyway, very interesting thread, thanks everyone

 

[anthropisces]

I don't believe doing repeated 75m swim is going to be any helpful.
Cheers, Tanguy
Blog: Splash

Its been a while since I posted in this thread.

I do the multiple 75s just once in a while now. I think they are great for keeping me calm in the ocean when I'm spearing down deep; the contractions are familiar because of my pool work. As far as whether the repeated 75s will help me reach 100; I don't know. I haven't even tried 100 in a long time now.

I do notice that the 75's get easier as the night progresses and the last one or two or three are pretty cinchy.

One of these days I'll try to do 100 without a snorkel and without baggy surfing trunks on, in a pool longer than 25 meters and deeper than 4 feet so I can use a more appropriate fin stroke. I may also try some sprinting 75s and see if they are easier or more difficult.

As I mention in another thread, my training has changed a lot. I mix things up a lot more now.

 

[vali]

if you did 75 in a 25m pool, i gues that you'll do the hundreads in a 50m pool...
ussually the turnovers come with big energy consumption...

 

[BristolMermaid]

Personally I'd back off the distance and do some short CO2 tables or pyramids to get used to contractions. If you're turning only 10 - 15 metres after your first contraction it suggests that you have a negative relationship with them ;-) I had this for a while where I would hate them arriving and fight them all the way, but I've turned it round now with lots of wet and dry exercises where its common to do repeated 25m lengths or over a minute of frequent contractions. After a while you realise they're your friends (of sorts) - they enhance the dive response and keep you clear-headed. It's all about getting comfortable with the discomfort

 

[baiyoke]

I do 8 times 75 meters sprints with 2 minutes rest inbetween in a 25 meter pool. My heart rate rise and fall from 60-115 in the beginning, and rising towards the end of the session to 80-125. Amusingly, It's easier for me to do the 75 meter sprint then a slow 75 meter: In the slow 75, I feel my quadreceps full of lactic acid towards the end of the swim say around 60 and on, while in the sprint I don't feel any lactic acid at all. I think it's the matter of large quantity of white muscle fibers in my body and will be glad to hear any other opinions.

In my opinion your body is not going into proper dive response mode, because of the heavy work load. That's why you get such a high heart rate, and that's why you don't get lactic... Just a theory, but that is what I'm thinking.

Anthropisces: Something that has increased my diving distance, and especially the "comfort"/ease of doing it, is doing a distance that is ok for me, but a little challenging. I've set my mind to do that, and when I get there I go up, no matter how I feel. I could do longer distances, but this is "my" distance at the moment... I can do it 2-3-4 times in a session. I've started to do no-warmup long dives... the first gives me the best feeling of having much more in me, I feel fresh, allthough I have to keep tension down... but I'm used to it now since 2-3 months... Just some ideas... Btw, I'm the kind of guy that never get even close to my pb in training... because I reach a point where I either have to really, really push (strong diverespons) or go up. Since my goal is to build comfort in (semi) long dives, I go up... only before competitions I push myself further... So in short you could consider: Find a distance (80m) and work on it until (relative) comfort, until you are sure you can do it anytime, then add 5 meters and so on... slowly adding on... I have a theory that for many/most people, in freediving you need to work on your comfortzone, to be able to leave it behind you... If you rush it, it might hit you like a hammer mentally (depending on different factors of course)....

 

[anthropisces]

These are great comments folks. Thank you