my packing confession

[azapa]

...and that is not necessarily true: you need to know how to equalize past RV or packing won't help you that much

i am struggling with that bit now, the sled was a great place (to practice) the mouthfill etc, but it went a bit quick

a few extra liters (packing) mates the non packed RV point deeper, and that is what I refer to by making things easier.

I even see safety divers packing for 20m dives, and Umberto joked about many people were packing just on other simple training dives. It probably comes from watching too many pro's on youtube! it must just seem to be "what you do" before a dive!

give me 6 months of daily sled rides and I'll have it all perfect rofl, no packing.

On the other hand Martin (100m CWT AA instructor) tells me he trains eq almost only in a deepish swiming pool on empty lungs. Probably worth a go with a good buddy on hand.

 

[Fondueset]

What stops me too - very frustrating because the dives are easy. Mostly I think I just need more chances to work deep. I'm hands free to 30m - then I have to pay attention.

I did do a series of empty and shallow line dives - the line is a huge help because you can be very precise in avoiding squeeze. I think this is a very helpful method.

 

[sgnips]

give me 6 months of daily sled rides and I'll have it all perfect rofl, no packing.

uh... this is the only "daily" sled i can long to:

Azapa, you're right, Federico Mana in his book says he saw lots of safety divers packing just to look at the line from surface!!!!!
which means 20-30 secs "dive"... such a huge static, eh?

i'm definitely gonna make some shallow-empty lungs-mouthfill-equalizing training this summer, too!!
5m deep pool and lake: try to stop me!!! :t

 

[Fondueset]

Of course I am giving advice to the masters - but remember the pressure change is much greater shallow - so your lungs compress VERY QUICKLY when you start mostly empty in say 10m. It is why I liked having the line - so I could adjust carefully and go slow.

 

[azapa]

10M? I can't normally equalize at all at 5M head down with empty lungs (just a few reverse packs). Key to mouthfill (i think, just learning) a nice epiglotis block with the K sound force (K block).

you are right on the safety call, i have seen some bad squeezes done by top athletes just on the warm up lines with too many negative dives.

 

[Fondueset]

I've never done a dive with reverse packs!! Just mostly empty I found myself bottoming out around 10.

 

[Chrillepille]

Regarding dangers with packing, I can quickly come to think of two. Packing BO which might hurt you if you fall (when done on land). High interpulmonary pressure might lead to ruptur of the lugn tissue and air escaping into the blood vessels: Suspected arterial gas embolism after glossopharyn... [Aviat Space Environ Med. 2010] - PubMed result

Two friends of mine have had neurologic symptoms after packing. If this was due to air embolism I don't know. I know that this has been discussed on DB before.


Regarding packing for safety diving, I do it myself sometimes. When safetydiving I know that I am not in control of what happens during my dive and when I can abort my dive. My main issues are to stay safe and keep the competitor safe. I don't know if I have to swim up with an unconscious diver from 25 meters (where most divers are still heavy), when I had just decided I need to go up to keep myself safe (and 2nd safety might at that moment still be at 15). And the estimated dive times that competitors usually have to announce with their AP are just that - estimates. From own experience they can differ as much as 30 seconds compared to actual dive time. So my advice is: don't take safety diving lightly, be prepared for the worst. It might seem excessive, but this is how I do it.

Cheers!
Christian

...and PS. Packing is just one of many things that can possibly improve your diving. But to me packing has made a tremendous difference. Keep it up! :inlove

 

[vali]

so it is true....
my packing helped me reach the 28m depth with only the valsalva manouver....
i know that, in most cases, after 28-30m the valsalva is not good ennough....
at 170cm and 95 kg i-m not so hydrodynamic...but something work in my mind and i-m able to do 25m depth quite well....
and perhaps the 2 or 3 more lung swalow air does not mean neccesary that i-m overpacking....
when i did the 28m in dahab [in the week before this], i was tired because i'm overwighted miself and i descended in not such a good shape and relaxation
the descend + ascend took me 51 seconds....very little time....dangerously little time....
improper weight can't do damage....next day i was dived at blue hole at 25m [properly weighted and much more relaxed at the ascent] in 1:20 minutes.....
a lesson was learned by me!

 

[fcallagy]

Like has been said whatever works for you as long as its safe. i have never had to safety at a comp but can understand what christian is saying. azapa is a heavy bugger from 20m.

 

[sgnips]

Regarding packing for safety diving, I do it myself sometimes. When safetydiving I know that I am not in control of what happens during my dive and when I can abort my dive. My main issues are to stay safe and keep the competitor safe. I don't know if I have to swim up with an unconscious diver from 25 meters (where most divers are still heavy), when I had just decided I need to go up to keep myself safe (and 2nd safety might at that moment still be at 15). And the estimated dive times that competitors usually have to announce with their AP are just that - estimates. From own experience they can differ as much as 30 seconds compared to actual dive time. So my advice is: don't take safety diving lightly, be prepared for the worst. It might seem excessive, but this is how I do it.

i agree, if you're safety-diving you can't underestimate anything

i was talking (well, Federico was talking) about those who pack before looking down to the blue, for a 30 seconds breathold which does not need packing at all

 

[azapa]

Like has been said whatever works for you as long as its safe. i have never had to safety at a comp but can understand what christian is saying. azapa is a heavy bugger from 20m.

Feargus, don't exaggerate, it was 19.2m and I had eaten a large lunch. sorry.. nice job though.. not sure I would have managed the other way around..

 

[azapa]

i agree, if you're safety-diving you can't underestimate anything

i was talking (well, Federico was talking) about those who pack before looking down to the blue, for a 30 seconds breathold which does not need packing at all

I would say that if you can't safety at 20m without packing you probably shouldn't be safety.

But I do admit the unpredictable nature of safetying bellow that. I had a very bad experience as deep safety for Herbert that I was not prepared for. He decided to make a 3:30 CWT dive a 4:45 FI one somewhere during the dive (!). I left at 2:45 or so to meet him at -35 (only Herbert and Sara had such deep safety requests, other safety A was normally at -25 to 30). Well, i hung too long, looking into the dark for him. It was nice to see his light coming up, and I shure would have been little use to him if he had trouble. But that what backup systems (like CB) are for.

Anyway, interesting points.

 

[JennyWren]

I'm on the brink of being addicted too - started packing to compensate for the 'empty lungs' feeling I get when having a harder time getting a full breath in a wetsuit, in water, and have moved on to packing to feel less empty at depth. Recently had two incidents with coughing up blood after a dive which I think is from overpacking and tearing something, some I'm going to have to back off and be sure I stretch enough and advance slowly.

 

[Kars]

What makes breathing easier is laying on your back on the surface, and using the "Dave's Double Breath" inhale technique.

Also remember that the relaxation you start out with determines the quality of the dive.
The less tension you have, the better in avoiding getting hurt.

Having a warm and flexible torso is also key, as well as proper equalisation techniques.
For instance trying Valasava at 40m is likely to stress some parts too much.

 

[Lil Dragonfly]

I just wanted to say thank you all for your helpful replies you guys are awesome!

 

[Lil Dragonfly]

that is the main and more actual risk
as lungs don't have pain receptors, you won't feel anything but breast compression when packing too much

Are you sure this is the case?

I have had lung pain before (and I mean down in the actual lung, not just the throat). And so has my friend.

 

[Lil Dragonfly]

I'll say use your condition excuse to go to the Will Truebridge's Course on the Bahama's, maybe you can have some tax return marking this trip as medical treatment cost? (Have your doctor write a description.

Meh, I wish

When I first complained to my doctor about the problem and how it was making freediving a pain in the butt, he diagnosed me with subclinical lung paralysis. Then my next question to him was, "What can be done to fix it". His response? He basically said it is too slight to be clinically significant, and therefore he doesn't give a rat's ass about it.

Nice idea though!

 

[Lil Dragonfly]

Books to buy...

Federico Mana - breathing techniques for freediving <--def. getting that one.

I need a good yoga instruction book too, to make up for the fact I can't go to the mentioned yoga classes (no money). Any ideas?

 

[alastair]

Aaaah, my first post in a loooong time...

As some of you have written, I have always 'packed' in order to fill up rather than over fill - my packs being a few big sucks rather than the rather bizarre endless squeaky swallows I see some people doing. It helped me enormously establish the feeling of readiness that I find so important before diving. It's a routine, I guess. The last breath certainly is critical, but I don't really mind if I get it perfectly right, or if I have to top it off with a couple of 'packs'...

Anyway, for those of you who are still experimenting with a perfect preparation, I have always found that a mental image is incredibly powerful and influential on diving capacity. My excellent AA instructor gave us a few some years ago and i still use them. For statics I'll build a complex and textured world I can explore, but breathing up for depth I find the following works a treat :

1. Picture yourself full of grey color
2. Each breath in fills you with red
3. Each breath out expels more grey
4. When you're all red, it's a final breath (a couple of optional packs) and go

Just make sure they're loooong sloooow breaths. It should take a couple of minutes from start to finish.

Cheers

Alastair
Genova