Need help C4

[GHOSTS]

hi can any one help me please, i am going crazy on understanding the c4 fins.
I have read C4 fins web sights and forums and i still cant work out what is best for me,
i know everyone is different but here is what i am confused with , i am 6,3 tall 193-cm fit build weight 90-kg i am diving around the 15 to 20 meters and i wont to push it to 30 to 40 meters i am using diver R fins which are a fiberglass fin which is one of the strongest and flexible fin here in australia, also so most popular
the stiffness is mediums,
but i wont to go to carbon know what is the difference to mustang 80 ,flap ,falcon,OMERSUB Omer Millennium Carbon Rekord III
and i see the c4 come in omer pockets and spetton.
I read all about the fin and the measurements and different stiffness,
like are they the same c4 with different foot pockets do they all perform the same e.g., spetton vs omer,
can anyone please clear this up for me
thanks rick

 

[chrismar]

Rick, break out a full stop once in a while!

The DiveRs are good fins. Why do you want to change? A pair of mustang 30 or 40s may be a bit better (I tend towards softer rather than harder, but I'm shorter and 10kg lighter), but they will not take you to double your depths. I would put an upper limit of about 10% performance improvement with new fins. Tops.

My suggestion is to keep your fins, provided they're comfortable, and instead work on technique.

 

[GHOSTS]

thanks sorry about the full stops,

Diver R are a great fin, i do pool training once a week, and i filmed my technique
and from watching the clip the fin looks to soft to my body size. I can fill them
pushing a little bit but not as much as i like. From reading everyone and about 10 different forums it sounds like C4 are the way to go. I was considering contacting Ray to try the hards but i thought maybe c4 flaps or falcon in 40
would be the go.

how can i learn about the right tech for the fin?
cheers rick

 

[chrismar]

If you think the DiveRs are too soft, then you'd want 40s, either mustangs if the footpocket suits you or plain ol' falcons if they don't. Flaps are MUCH softer than DiveRs, so you'll hate them.

What makes you think that soft fins are a bad thing? It requires less energy to push the fins and efficiency (to a point) is better. This isn't finswimming; you don't get points for speed.

 

[Mullins]

Post the clip on youtube and ask some freedivers to check it out for you. I am about your weight and a little taller, and the C4 25s or 80s are about right for me. 30s are too stiff, 40s way too stiff. Not saying I have great bifin technique, just that the soft fins are definitely capable of taking you very deep and they'll probably be more efficient. It may just be you're bending your knees a bit too much

 

[Mullins]

Chris - don't the flaps also come in 30 and 40 stiffness? I thought the flap range as the same as the Falcon range only with a different shaped blade tip.

 

[GHOSTS]

im not sure, know you got me thinking so your saying if you go a softer fin you can still get the same distance as a harder one keeping in mind
im 6,3 90kg.
How many kicks should it take to do a 25m pool in and what sort of time for each lap do you recommend and i will try it this week,
thanks mullins i will post it up on the weekend, i think i am bending my knees what sort of movement should i have.
Are the foot pockets wide as im a size 13 to 14 and i have a have wider foot
thanks rick

 

[Mullins]

Yeah I'd always go for the softer option where there's a choice as I really don't find soft fins lack power off the bottom. However that's just me, there are guys out there who use 40s for reasons I can't fathom. The DiveRs are good fins and you probably wouldn't pick up any genuine benefit from moving to C4s, but they might feel snappier due to their length. The DiveRs are very long, so if you're doing bicycle kicks with them you'll find they'll fold and the tips won't provide much thrust. Those long fins really require wide, straight-legged kicks. Easier to do this in the sea than in the pool.

You do need to bend your legs a little when bifinning, but the quads are really only working to transfer power from the hip flexors. If you look like you're riding a bicycle then you're bending them too much. There are a few good bifinning videos around, one that I can think of is Will Trubridge's 88m in last year's triple depth. Maybe a video of that event is on Trux's website? Or youtube.

 

[sheepeck]

Flaps come in stifness 30 for sure - I have a pair. And probably 40 too eventhough I don't know for sure.
BTW - I'm 186cm/+-85kg and find them quite OK - I prefer stiffer fins to softer. I used Gara 2000HD before and those were fine for me and I find the C4 Flap 30 a bit softer.

 

[chrismar]

Dave/Sheepeck - As far as I know, the flaps only come in 80s now but used to come in the full range. Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[sheepeck]

Hm, I guess you could be right - I don't know much about recent situation - I have bought them about 2 years ago and not from the shop but secondhand.

 

[Janner]

Im also 6ft 3 and 93kg. I use the C4 Falcon 40's with omer footpockets, there great fins for blue water spearfishing, nice and powerful to chase fish if needs be and like rockets for up and down finning. The only draw back as im sure you know is that there not particulary great for surface swimming due to the stiffness. But if you want a fin for deep diving and you have the legs to push them, get the 40's. That's the advice a friend of mine gave me anyway, and i don't regret buying them. The South African spearo's i have meet also seem to prefer a nice stiff fin for deep diving and they dive to 35meters regulary. But then again its horses for courses at the end of the day mate.

Ian

 

[chrismar]

Will Trubridge & Dave Mullins, two of the deeper divers around, both use cressi gara 2000 LDs. Martin dived to 70+ (can't remember exactly how deep) with a pair of Alas, short rubber fins used by underwater hockey players. You don't need stiff fins to go deep.

Dave's advice on fin technique worth having a think about.

FULL DISCLOSURE: I use a pair of falcon 30s, replacing a snapped pair of Gary Fishers. They're very good fins for what I want out of them.

 

[Nata]

Ciao!
For all C4 blades the stiffness is:

- 25 soft
- 30 medium
- 40 hard

80 is not the blade's hardnesses but just the name of longer fins for Apnea.

GHOSTS,to help you, I need to know something more...

a) Where are you from?and where do you usually dive ?
b) How tall are you and what do you weigh?
c) Are you an experienced diver?
d) For which type of dive do you use them ( apnea, spearfishing, snorkeling ecc) ?
e) How deep are you going?

 

[Mullins]

Nata, have you read Ghosts' first post?

 

[azapa]

Dave, having met you at VB2008 (simon here) I can't believe that you say 30's are too stiff for a big bloke like you? I was recommend them by martin stepaneck (i dove with him so it was not a generic recommendation). From your other post too I can see you are saying that there is a general misconception and people are buying too stiff a fin? I remember you tested fins for immersion times to a certain depth, but the conclusion was that you may have been pumping harder to compensate between one and the other.
Can you give us more information regarding the softer fin is better line of thought..

 

[Mullins]

Hey Simon,

Yeah there were some obvious problems with that test i.e. I may have been compensating for softer fins. However I actually felt less fatigued when using the softer fins so even if I compensated by changing technique, I appeared (non-scientific test here so being cautious) still to use less energy. The C4 30s felt hard to kick with and I actually moved more slowly despite thinking I was going fast. I reckon they were forcing me to bend my knees more, which created heaps of drag and wasted energy.

I was able to accelerate just as fast and maintain almost exactly the same profile with the soft fins, so even if I did kick faster there was no problem with power not being available leaving the surface and the bottom. This is the thing most people seem to worry about - including me, initially. I would like to do the test a more rigorously at some stage though, it was a bit limited.

After also failing to find any difference in performance between carbon and plastic blades (despite carbon feeling 'snappier') I switched to using Cressi 3000LDs for almost everything. They're still a bit too stiff but pretty good, and I've taken them to 50m with a 6.5mm suit and heaps of lead so they're not short of power. Could go plenty deeper if I was masochistic enough to want to pursue CWT with bifins!

My second choice are my C4 80s as they're about the correct stiffness for me when using a 3mm suit, I just don't use them very often because they're expensive and I don't want to wreck them on rocks. They're also a bit too long, the blade tips stay straight and flop around which indicates they could stand to be a few cm shorter. Actually I'd probably swap them for a pair of Falcon or Flap 25s if anybody in this neck of the woods is keen...

 

[demasoni]

I use C4 Flap 25's mounted in Sporasub pockets. I'm 170cm tall and weigh 65 kilos. I normally use the C4's with a 3mm suit with 4 - 6 lbs of lead. Having tried stiffer fins like the Matrix #3 blades, Cressi Gara 2000 HD's, Omer BAT 30's, and Picasso Black Team's, I found that stiffer blades make me kick slower in order to kick with decent technique. Also, stiffer blades seems to cause my shoulders to rotate back and forth more on the ascent.

Both of these factors force me to try to control my kick and form and waste energy - mentally and physically. IMHO, I say go with the softest fins you can get away with.

 

[chrismar]

Hmmm, now I want a pair of mustang 25s

 

[Mullins]

I really didn't like the mustangs. Too wide. Much prefer the falcons