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New Mares Force Pneumatic

The metal rear end pistons if the front shoulder is forward of any seal can be reached by saltwater, but there is no problem if you soak the guns in freshwater and there is a small breather hole in the side of the piston to let water get past the anvil of the shock absorber face with the piston nose clamped on it. You can see on the grouped piston photo that molded pistons extend right up to the piston mushroom head's shank. A second seal further towards the front of the piston keeps water away from the rear end provided it doesn't leak.
pistons various.jpg
If the gun has muzzle relief ports then rinsing water can access the length of the piston forwards of the seal, so you don't need the piston breather hole. In pneumo-vacuum guns the piston nose seals on the anvil face when discharged, so you have to push the piston back slightly to let water in and out when cleaning the gun. I have mentioned this previously on vacuum barrel threads.
MUZZLE WATER ENTRAPMENT R.jpg
 
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In guns with muzzle relief ports the front piston seal, if it has one, cannot enter the region of the muzzle relief ports as it must not emerge from the front end of the inner barrel. In a pneumo-vacuum gun the piston's front seal can be much further forwards on the piston body as the inner barrel can terminate much closer to the shock absorber's anvil face.

These are the aftermarket pistons that Salvimar makes for the earlier Mares coaxial inner barrel guns such as the Sten, Cyrano, Jet and Spark models.
Salvimar replacement pistons for the Mares coaxial barrel guns..jpg

Note that the "O" ring seal sits in plastic, not in metal.
 
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In the days of all metal pistons there were no problems if the guns were washed/soaked after a dive, a few guns had stainless steel pistons, but most were plated steel using cadmium or zinc. All metal piston had tiny breather holes in the side of the piston to avoid hydraulic lock on the tapered spear tail's insertion.
piston spear metal.jpg

mirage-crx-jpg.42612
 
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According to this the "new" nozzle is a product in cooperation with STC.

View attachment 60112

I read the current cup style seal is originally a Pelengas developed patent and borrowed by Salvimar although I am not fully certain of the origins.
It is a good all round system in my experience, haven't been let down yet.
Only STC design that disappointed was the Cressi Saetta Pro STC vacuum nozzle which has a plastic (delrin?) nozzle tip which deformed after a light fall in a boat, luckily I had a soldering iron available to shape it back into a useful condition. The seals are also rather flimsy in that iteration

Unfortunately the new Mares using STC goods most likely means their new Force gun will have a plastic tip too...


As for the cup style seal, its origins are somewhat controversial. I am pretty sure Dima from UBL will say he was one, if not the first, to make it work and that actually he allowed Salvimar to use the design. So, if Pelengas claims they came up with it, that may or may not be true. Maybe it's a case of people in the same region taking clues from each other over the years and incrementally overtaking each other in progress until one of them decides they should patent it at which point they may no longer rememeber who did what and when first.

In other equally grey areas of modern vacuum cuff story telling, STC supposedly sued Dima or threatened to sue him for patent infringement. Dima told me the case went nowhere once he started showing proof of his designs that predated any patent STC ever applied for. Also, he used to have a run down of all that on his website but the site has gone down. Granted, this is just one side of that story.

Yeah, the beauty of commercializing these things...
 
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Yep, I am alive and good to see you guys are, too:)

Anyhow, a few thoughts from me even though I haven't tinkered with my airguns for a while (but that's going to change very soon. Stay tuned, haha).

As some of you may remember, I made a Mirage out of an Evo handle so have a bit of hands-on experience with it.
I too was initially impressed with the MIM stainless steel trigger and line release but they are honestly not great. I now think they are bling only in order to sell guns.
Why? Because they have too much friction as they come. I polished the parts and it helped a bit but not for long. If you like to run your shooting line just a tad tight, the friction is real. The plastic-on-plastic of the Salvi Predathor is much, much better in this regard. The circulating line release itself is also super simple and while you sometimes get the trigger "stuck" in an in between position on the line release you soon learn to check for this before loading the shaft. I still like it more than the steel line release of the Mares.

Also, while it's true that the Force's barrel sits higher in the reservoir than on a Predathor, I personally think it's more important how low the barrel sits in relation to the grip. Granted, it's nice that the sight line over the top of the barrel is close to the shaft but it's the barrel height in relation to the grip that governs how recoil affects the shot which starts mattering when you really power these things up and use heavier shafts.
All that just to say, that I am OK with a concentric barrel IF the grip is higher. But it's one of the things that is a let down on the Salvi handle. It's so, so low even when it didn't have to be. The Force/Evo handle has a higher grip in relation to the barrel plus the barrel sits higher in the reservoir, so it wins out on that one.

One thing I actually like about the Evo/Force handle is that it has a very functional safety. It's rather smart. It pokes your hand when it's on, but it "disappears" in the off position, so you get a very tactile confirmation of its position.

As for the Mares piston, I am not impressed, either. I had one like that on my first Seac Hunter, I think. But like Tomi says, it's prone to corrosion - judging from Pete's experience it sounds like the older ones of this design were better made.
I think it's a plated steel and I suspect what happens is that the plating gets attacked by salt water in front of the o-ring and then it basically chips off under the o-ring and makes a path behind the o-ring. The ad says something about it being "hand turned case-hardened steel" which may or may not be the same as what I called "plating".

Honestly, overall, it looks like yet another minimum facelift with parts from the bin. Yes, a few new molds, but that's it.
 
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If the spear is not lined up into the muzzle then this can happen in extreme cases, especially with longer guns.


Salvimar damage.jpg


Bending the lip of the muzzle like that is a real thing. I have done that on at least one of my Vuotos.
Somewhere else I will do a sort of life update post but suffice to say I have been without my tools and machines since 2019 but that recently changed.

So, I think I will chuck the muzzle up in my lathe and cut the bent lip off altogether. I may insert a small sleeve to do the job it once did, but I may just try it first without a new sleeve. I may just be that the front part of the muzzle clamps down on the cuff hard enough that it wont go anywhere even without that inner lip.
 
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Since you guys were talking about pistons here, I found an old image of some of mine. I think the length must be from the tang flange to the front of the piston as I was trying to make an apples to apples comparison between them:
181 - YA24H3W.jpg


I know the STC tang is threaded because I've had to be very careful which way I turned the shaft after loading - I have "flopper OCD" and always want the flopper to be perfectly on the underside. With the STC you could literally end up unscrewing the piston from its tang if you went the wrong way...!

I would guess most of the plastic ones have the tang molded in place, right? But maybe the UBL one is a press fit, which sounds scary but it's the strongest plastic piston I have ever tried.
 
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Hello , I just bought the Mare force 100cm. How do you load it by the way ? Is it necessary due to dry barel firstly to put it off the water and empty any water from muzzle, then insert the shaft and finally you can load it submerged as usual with non dry barel pneumatic guns ?
 
Hello , I just bought the Mare force 100cm. How do you load it by the way ? Is it necessary due to dry barel firstly to put it off the water and empty any water from muzzle, then insert the shaft and finally you can load it submerged as usual with non dry barel pneumatic guns ?
I think this is the safest method for the guns helth, but you can load it under water too, if you have to for some reason...
If you load it under water it is necessary to change the oil more often, at least once a year.
 
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Is Salvimar Vuoto Vacuum muzzle compatible with mares force ? if anyone knows?​

No...
The thread is ok but the mares Force noze cone diameter is too small.

By the way, Mares force muzzle is compatible with mares cyrano1.3.
 
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