New safety protocol? loosen weight belt AND remove mask?

[trux]

I am not too sure about the whole dive reflex thing. For me, cold water on my face, or being in cool water, reduces my apnea time and increases the risk of blackout. I am not sure why this is, but it has consistently proven to be the case for me.

The only explanation is that you are a cold-blood reptile, not a mammalian, Lucia

 

[naiad]

rofl rofl rofl
Maybe not too far from the truth...
http://forums.deeperblue.net/beach-...ness-im-freak-i-bet-you-too-4.html#post629467
http://forums.deeperblue.net/beach-...ness-im-freak-i-bet-you-too-4.html#post629972

 

[efattah]

I am not too sure about the whole dive reflex thing. For me, cold water on my face, or being in cool water, reduces my apnea time and increases the risk of blackout. I am not sure why this is, but it has consistently proven to be the case for me.

< this post is a friendly JOKE >

The only explanation is that Naiad is a cold-blooded liar....!

 

[harbour seal]

thanks for giving your insight eric. having only a 1 sec window is not sufficient time to do much of anything. i think your mantra of "remember to breath upon surfacing" is optimal given the situation.

In my mind, the only time it is conceivable to ditch the weight belt with benefit (or remove the mask), would be if you got stuck in something on the bottom (wreck, fishing line, etc.), and you overstayed your bottom time and realized you had been on the bottom for WAY too long. Even before beginning the ascent, you decide that you must ditch your belt and remove your mask. You don't lose any momentum or cause any drag, because you aren't even moving yet.

i am glad you mentioned this type of scenario as it is exactly the type where i think these techniques would be most effective.

specifically, ted's (unirdna) account of his BO while diving with connor and his son came to mind. basically he ended up staying much too long on the bottom at depth before suddenly realizing he had to get going (probably CO2 narced?). in a situation like this dropping your weight belt and mask would seem to make sense.

http://forums.deeperblue.net/freediving-stories/50858-lessons-learned-bahamas-intimate-account-our-most-dangerous-enemy.html

You have to do some countermeasures far before. That's exactly why I am telling I am opening my belt buckle at any dive longer than some 40s. And I do it preventively at the bottom, I do not wait to see if I can make it up first.

this seems the most realistic approach (loosening it upon commencing ascent), given an operating window of 1 second, in which weight belt removal would be possible.

in fact, the beginning of the ascent seems the only time that either of these techniques would be both useful and possible.

Better than removing and keeping in the hand is probably pulling it down to the neck, or maybe keeping on the front - some additional fixation might be wise though, to avoid losing it.

as eric mentioned drag created by holding the mask would be an issue, particularly if you held it by the strap. although i think less so if you held the body of the mask.

with practice, would it be possibly to easily slip the mask down below the chin? this would minimize the drag concerns; however, if your mask ended up blocking your mouth or even choking your neck this maneuver would be detrimental.

cheers,
sean
vancouver

 

[azapa]

There is a great little drawing and explanation in Umberto Pelizzari's book about why it can feel so good down at 20M, and this why freedivers/spearos stay too long there. "Feeling of well being" is the expression used. The trouble is one forgets the time required to get to the surface. I have the cressi "[SIZE=-1]MARSELLAISE" belt, and on too long dives unbuckle, the belt stays on though, one hand stops the trailing end slipping through the buckle. I will unbuckle before even heading up. I guess thats what you meant by holding belt in your hand.

Safe dives.
[/SIZE]

 

[harbour seal]

hello all,

i received some wise council from island sands in response to this thread, which led me to posting.

i just wanted to clear up that i don't think anyone should immediately take sebastian's findings as gospel. i don't think any one diver's ideas, in isolation, should be taken as gospel for that matter.

personally, i think mask removal is a rather interesting idea but ultimately does nothing if it has no practical utility for most divers. hopefully the community will start thinking about/testing mask removal under safe and controlled conditions.

only after wider testing by different groups of experienced divers, can we evaluate if it is ultimately a worthwhile technique and under what conditions it should/should not be employed.

in the end it may not be worth the effort or even hazardous in certain situations (as many have mentioned) or it could in fact be a life-saving maneuver that ends up being taught in PFI/FIT/etc teaching as invaluable in the right situations.

cheers and thanks for all of your input,
sean

 

[Job.Romijn]

I have been thinking about unlocking the buckle of my weightbelt on ascent, but never got around to actually doing it.
Probably because i didn't feel that i'm pushing it yet.

However, the comment from Eric about the shallow dive getting hairy because of the lack of surface/recovery time made me think:
This could happen to me too!

Also the idea of making this safety measure an automatic thing sounds very plausible.
So i will start experimenting with this now, because it will be to late to start when i do get into trouble.
It will probably make me feel even safer going up!

Another thing i thought might help is putting the weightblocks on the back of my weightbelt (instead of my belly, or evenly distributed).
This should help me floating on my back, face up, especially if i'm unconscious at the surface.

If the weight is hanging on my belly, i tend to float face-down. That doesn't help the breathing process...

I realise the weight distribution doesn't matter anymore after dumping the belt, but i want to try constant weight without fins as well. I'll be needing both my arms to propel me back up to the surface then, so no free hand to hold the buckle!

Job

 

[sebastien murat]

Mr Harbour Seal asked if I could elaborate further on this mask-removal thing:

The sooner you remove it the better. Ideally you'd dive without it, but if not, then immediately upon ascending...not when your in the steep part of the ambient pressure gradient. Furthermore, you ideally want to tape into colder water as soon as possible, which is generally that found below the thermoclines. Cold aside the added stress will further lower your O2 consumption rate. This strategy is not for use when your diving within your aerobic dive limit, i.e., easy diving, since there should be no excuse for blacking-out then. Its use is strictly for pb diving or for emergencies if you're in the habit of diving with a mask.

PS: Island Sands.....The notion of realizing your full O2 conserving dive response in a relaxed mental state, as some teach and continue to teach, is simply *******s; animal diving physiologists have known this since at least the 1940s. There's ample amounts of literature out there so this is nothing new.

My two bits
S

 

[sebastien murat]

*******s = b o l l o c k s

S

 

[azapa]

I am not too sure about the whole dive reflex thing. For me, cold water on my face, or being in cool water, reduces my apnea time and increases the risk of blackout. I am not sure why this is, but it has consistently proven to be the case for me.

Naiad,

Seeing as no one believes your cold=worse apnea scam :t , I will offer you a possible explanation from my very limited experience:

I guess you must be confusing cold water with the "scariness" of open water?? Murky, cold, deep, full of sharks and other imaginary beasties(!), the sound of outboard motors buzzing etc. My apnea is reduced by 50% when I can't see the bottom, diving into the murk. Just takes practice and a good buddy to overcome.

safe dives.

 

[sebastien murat]

Your urgency to breathe is not the same as your breath-hold dive potential. Surely, stress will bring on contractions sooner but this has a positive effect on you O2 conserving ability and your ultimate potential. This can be easily demonstrated by means of blowing into an O2 gas analyzer or indirectly by means of HR.

S

 

[Fondueset]

My times definitely improve with the onset of a mild chill. This transitions to worse times with a full-on chill though this can be overridden up to a point.

I very much enjoy the overall sensation of diving without a mask - but I like being able to see stuff.

 

[naiad]

Naiad,

Seeing as no one believes your cold=worse apnea scam , I will offer you a possible explanation from my very limited experience:

I guess you must be confusing cold water with the "scariness" of open water?? Murky, cold, deep, full of sharks and other imaginary beasties(!), the sound of outboard motors buzzing etc. My apnea is reduced by 50% when I can't see the bottom, diving into the murk. Just takes practice and a good buddy to overcome.

safe dives.

I meant even cold water in the pool doing static. Even if I am not scared, and the water is not particularly cold, my apnea time is reduced by at least 1:00. This is not because I get put off and decide to bail out early - I will black out if I continue.

I still don't understand why this happens. Surprisingly, being scared or stressed does not always have a bad effect for me. My easiest ever 50m dynamic was in a competition.

I very much enjoy the overall sensation of diving without a mask - but I like being able to see stuff.

Me too. It is very different from taking the mask off during the dive.

 

[shoutatthesky]

PS: Island Sands.....The notion of realizing your full O2 conserving dive response in a relaxed mental state, as some teach and continue to teach, is simply *******s; animal diving physiologists have known this since at least the 1940s. There's ample amounts of literature out there so this is nothing new.

Your urgency to breathe is not the same as your breath-hold dive potential. Surely, stress will bring on contractions sooner but this has a positive effect on you O2 conserving ability and your ultimate potential. This can be easily demonstrated by means of blowing into an O2 gas analyzer or indirectly by means of HR.

Sebastien, Strong words mate. Are you saying inducing stress in a diver can increase BHD. I find personally the more relaxed I am the better.
Why don't you get out and break some records and you can show us all first hand the supremacy of your philosophy???
I value highly your contribution to the study Apnea I just wish you could share your ideas without saying, in effect, that everyone else is wrong.

BTW - Data gained from the study of rats, dogs, monkeys, horses, etc. is not proof of the same results being found with Humans.

 

[azapa]

easiest ever 50m dynamic was in a competition.

Naiad:
My best dynamics are at the end of say a 1 hour pool session in say 20 C water. I am feeling a bit tired, on the point of shivers. I would say I can make 20% further than on first jumping into the water.

This is the same in the ocean. My watch now shows it painfully clearly. The first 10 dives are 45 seconds. Next 20 or so 45 to 1:00. Then in full DR mode, I guess, up to 2:00. My very last dives, too tired, too cold and/or bored, are at about 1:00 again, and show me its time to go home. These are no stress/no comp/no peer pressure dives, I just stay down as long as it feels good.

What I still don't understand, in the Ocean, is how I can have good and bad apnea days?? In the pool my apnea is a standard "bad" rofl

cheers!

 

[trux]

Sebastien, Strong words mate. ...
Why don't you get out and break some records and you can show us all first hand the supremacy of your philosophy???

Adam, don't get fooled by Seb's attitude. Although I admit he often chooses stronger words than necessary, I think it is just caused by the size of his ego not matching well the size of the body (however big it is) - he is simply a great personality. He is also a great athlete, an excellent freediver, and although I do not know him personally, I bet he is much more lovely in reality than it sometimes may look like here on the forum.

Seb indeed already did set some freediving records, and I suppose he does not really bother too much about them today. He did/does train though several recent record holders and top competitors. And although I think he made no AIDA records, he is listed at ApneaMania in the section Other Records with an open-water dynamic apnea record of 146m from 1999, and in several other sources on the web I saw he also held a WR of 192m resp. 193m in dynamics. But especially: with empty lungs he can do longer statics and dynamic, or go deeper than the majority of the world top freedivers can do with full lungs.

So stay critical to his social behavior on the forum, (that does not always make the best echo here), but keep the highest respect for his performance, and especially for his teaching, which I believe revolutionized modern freediving more than anything else in the last few years.

 

[shoutatthesky]

From previous posts of Seb's I can tell he is very passionate about his studies. I was trying to match my writing mood to his.
I don't doubt Seb's ability and the effect his studies have had on the philosophies of many of the worlds freedivers. I do however take exception to him rubbishing other schools of thought and methods. Methods that seem to work as well if not better than his.
This may change but the proof has not been produced yet. Though I do admit that FRC is being emphatically embraced by many freedivers. I embrace any studies aimed at incresing performance and try to take from them what works for me.

 

[sebastien murat]

Good try...no cigar!

I hear this all the time: warm-up, relax, etc., but there's no physiological basis for it. I've been teaching for a while and we compare PAO2 with both methods and there results are always the same: in favor of no warm-up, elevated pre-dive HRs, and clear pre-dive stress.

Sometimes the truth is hard to swallow but it deosn't mean we should let otheres pull the wool over our eyes!
S

 

[harbour seal]

Mr Harbour Seal asked if I could elaborate further on this mask-removal thing:

....yeah, that's right--- it's MISTER to the rest of you.....

I hear this all the time: warm-up, relax, etc., but there's no physiological basis for it. I've been teaching for a while and we compare PAO2 with both methods and there results are always the same: in favor of no warm-up, elevated pre-dive HRs, and clear pre-dive stress.

once again, thanks for sharing your findings.

cheers,
sean
vancouver

 

[amihov]

Removing the belt can be very scary thing. The best thing is to balance the weight so you don't have to take it of. For me the belt is like part of my body. I don't play whit it . Taking of the mask may work . But if you are diving whit no rope in a murky water and you take out the mask and you lose direction it can be very dangerous. If you are using a rope and diving in clear blue water then you don't need a mask just a nose clip will do the job. But in Vancouver murky water whit under 5 m visibility whit no mask under 15 m you can easily lose direction and kill yourself bay going in the wrong direction and waisting all of your energy. So think twice before you tray to cheat your limits whit tricks . And again things that work for people diving in different conditions then yours can not only spoil your diving experience but kill you .