New safety protocol? loosen weight belt AND remove mask?

[Mullins]

I'm pretty confident that I know which way is up, even without a mask. It's really not that disorientating. The visibility makes little difference because your vision is poor anyway.

The association of comfort with performance does seem to come up time after time. My most comfortable dives have followed a long warmup period. But my best performances have come without any warmup and with high levels of discomfort. It's important to distinguish between the two.

If ditching your belt is to help, I think you need to do it early. I have done it once while spearfishing, at the beginning of an ascent from around 37m. I had been trying to untangle a kingfish which had tangled on a reef and as soon as I started the ascent I knew it was going to be tight. So I ditched the belt, no second thoughts. Possibly the smartest call I've made while diving.

 

[amihov]

I agree about the belt. But New Zeland diving conditions are much much better then in Vancouver. Some time the water is so bad on the surface that you can't even see the end of your fins. So again whit no mask is like diving only by the feeling. It's like driving by the feeling whit no map in a huge city.

 

[island_sands]

*******s = b o l l o c k s

S

Seb
I dont need to know what's between your ears! (Quote from: SNATCH)

Somebody i know read your post about this and said ooh!
"if you are about to blackout the safest thing to do is inhale water, poo your pants and do the can can…"

After all, you are able to remove your weight belt and mask as well, so why not drop your pants too? rofl

Like fondueset, i also enjoy diving without a mask, but even more so with my pants down :chatup

 

[shoutatthesky]

Sometimes the truth is hard to swallow but it deosn't mean we should let otheres pull the wool over our eyes!

Seb, We are all trying to find the truth. I am happy to listen to your ideas, study them, and try them.
Maybe to "swallow the truth" we need to have it made clearer and have access to more experience of the technique.
I am happy to pull the wool away from my eyes.

 

[Kars]

Naiad,

I too have trouble with cold water, but only when my inner body has become too cold. When I'm shivering like a leaf and people think I'm already having a samba..., it's easy to swim into a bo. Also my performances are reduced in this cold state.

Having a warm inner body and than get into cold water is indeed a O2 safer, until I can no longer relax without shivering. Basically I dive now with a sufficent warm suit, keeping my body just warm enough for the whole dive session. For technique training I usually had some pasta or rice 4-6 hours before in order to have some digestion ongoing to keep my core warm. Ofcause being hydrated is importand as well.

As for preperation for PB's I don't have warm-up dives.
I do warm up my muscles, stretch them.
Go through technique and dive mentally.
Make sure I stay warm until I hit the water. The contrast warm cold feels beneficial, though I not yet into going deep seconds after I hit the cold water. I prefere to have a ~ 5 min acclimation and in water relaxing breath up, consisting of slow long belly breaths getting focused and in tune.

The NO mask diving is for me not yet a posibility because of the cold water. Water about 16c and colder, apparently has the effect off blocking my sinuses.

Thank you Eric Fattah and others for your self rescue tip(s).

Love, peace and water,

Kars

 

[Fondueset]

So, clearly the real purpose of a dive knife is to stab yourself in the thigh on the way up!

It may be unnecessary - but I think it's probably useful to remember Sebastian is into an absolutely no compromises performance jag. He's out there on the edge sending back his findings and, I for one, appreciate his hard core scientific rigor.

At the same time - relaxing is a major part of my diving. Paradoxically that can, if you have the temperament, involve pushing the envelope and intentionally stressing. I apply the stuff he says where it fits - his emphasis on, and findings relative to, safety are key.

 

[Kars]

I was just thinking - I better not do that too often - would reciting an overly bussy agenda to Seb help him to increase his stresslevels?
Or hinting him that the rope might be 10m longer than requested?
There are a few sharks waiting down there?

Maybe Sebastien may need some some serious horror to become stressed since he has practiced it so much? Or maybe he went the other way and made himselve hyper sensitive?

And yes Sebastien I have great respect for your quest for knowledge and understanding, and mostly for your generosity of sharing it with us!
I think your insights and methods are among the most, if not the most intresting and inspireing enrichment to our passion.

Thank you,

Kars

 

[Fondueset]

The dive when I took this was a nice long breathhold! I'm sure the fact that I was totally creeped out by the look in this fish's eye helped.

 

[BennyB]

David Attenborough would love your lake Fondueset.

 

[Fondueset]

'The giant, mutant hammerhead burbot; also called 'lawyer' because of it's slimey, scaleless skin, is a result of radiation leakage from the nations oldest, and now defunct, nuclear power plant; Big Rock, in Charlevoix Michigan. These, and the gargantuan radioactive mutant Zebra muscles, have had a negative impact on the tourist industry in this area; devouring thousands of slow-moving beach-goers each year.

In a stunning example of learned symbiosis the zebra muscle will first capture a hapless vacationer, usually by clamping onto it's ankle like a bear trap, then slowly migrate it's prey out into deeper water, over a period of days, where the burbot will strike - usually at the base of the neck - and extract the brain; leaving the remains to be slowly digested by the voracious, but slow-moving, mussels.'

-I expect Lake Michigan has lots of potential for world record FRC dives.

 

[naiad]

Is that fish meant to look like that? rofl

 

[Sergiu]

I hear this all the time: warm-up, relax, etc., but there's no physiological basis for it. I've been teaching for a while and we compare PAO2 with both methods and there results are always the same: in favor of no warm-up, elevated pre-dive HRs, and clear pre-dive stress.

Sometimes the truth is hard to swallow but it deosn't mean we should let otheres pull the wool over our eyes!
S

Until recently I could not even imagine how on earth stress can improve one's performance, in spite of reading quite a bit about it here on DB. Then i tried it for the first time in the pool. No warm-up apart from stretching outside of the pool and trying to kid myself it is going to work out! Well, I can say now, the colder the water the better, more stress, longer dynamic dives. By adding stress (thus inducing the dive reflex) I added some 30m to my PB in less than 1 month, it took almost 1 year to add the same distance with regular training.

Do I like the stress, hell no, it's a rather painful dive but then "no pain, no gain"! I am now ditching the goggles too, for the pool at least, to get (hopefully) even stronger dive reflex and ultimately staying further away from a BO.

For PBs and competitions, i say, stress is good if you can cope with it, while relaxation is for, well, recreational dives.

On ditching the mask, I am going to try it out in open water but only with proper safety in place, when doing a safety drill for instance. However, i would see myself making use of this method, in real life situation only when solo diving or with limited safety, as possibly the last available measure to increase the survival chance. Having the face fully free at surface, even with a BO, one might recover and start breathing due to the facial receptors sensing the air flow. This is a statement not based on experience ( i hope to never have it!) but rather on reading on DB, so dont take it for granted.

serge

 

[naiad]

Having the face fully free at surface, even with a BO, one might recover and start breathing due to the facial receptors sensing the air flow. This is a statement not based on experience ( i hope to never have it!) but rather on reading on DB, so dont take it for granted.

That is a difficult one - having the mask off increases the risk of inhalation of water, but makes it easier to start breathing. I don't know which is more risky.

 

[sebastien murat]

On the issue of rubbishing Kirk et al.: that was not my implication or intent...he and others have done much for the sport, but if the truth got out that full realization of your potential came at a heavy cost pain and discomfort) you'd loose a whole lot of people who thought this stuff was too extreme (and it can be). You can improve and progress no doubt with the relaxed approach but it becomes relatively more unsafe if you airm is to see how far you can go.....this is why I tend to argue with stronger words. Teaching the relaxed approach to set pbs is a bit like leaving someone to play Russian Roulette, if they train alone.

S

 

[amihov]

So what will be the best approach then ?

 

[amihov]

Let say if you are ready to take all the pain and all the contractions. What will be the best way to go.

 

[shoutatthesky]

Train alone? No of course not.

Seb where is the best place for people like myself to learn of your methods in a practical environment?
I think we all have much to learn, and share. If I am to reach my highest potential I must learn what is best. Different people say different things and both show results. In the end we must arrive at a symbiosis of the best teachings. Which technique? The one that works best. Time and experience will tell.

A student, Adam

 

[sebastien murat]

There is an optimal approach for each set of changing conditions (internal and external). Consequently, you cannot use the same recipe for each(different) condition. The best approach is the one that allows for flexibility and respects the rule of perpetual change. This does not mean you cannot know which approach to use, it just means that you have to have the knowledge to know how to best get from point A (where you are now) to point B (where you want to be). In truth, you don't need to know all the science to know which recipe to apply when, but then you have to be highly atuned into picking up the flood of subtle cues coming to you from the environment and be able to interpret these in a practically meaningful way to achieve the results you want. Some learn this language of nature quickly others not so, or not at all.

The best place to learn: it depends on your objectives. If you have none then start somewhere, anywhere, then travel widely and compare.

S

 

[wes]

I have just recently done timed underwater swim trials in our pool and have measured that swimming without a sphera mask compared to with a sphera mask reduces drag by 4%. We have done several trials changing various factors and I am an aerospace engineer so am very confident of the number. I also believe from previous experience (not tested though) that typical masks used by freedivers are very much higher drag than the sphera so this drag reduction may easily be 8% for that case.

As for the case of safety I believe it is important to drill exactly what you will do whatever that is. Most important safety measure I thing is to do the same set of recovery breathing on the surface after every dive (alone or with partner) so it becomes unconscious habit. PFI trains 3 short hook breaths and 3 - 1/2 exhale purge breaths after every dive, every time.

My recommendation on drilling weight and mask is that if you decide to do this, to drop the weight belt fully and take the mask off fully, not to hold on to either and swim up and do this only if you know well ahead there is some emergency, not as Eric says to try and do it 10m from the surface. I do not believe that holding on to mask and weight belt gain you anything. Some scenarios I have encountered where I had plenty of time to know I was pushing my limits follow (although I didn't drop mask and weight belt as I don't train that way, though I might train to in the future)

Waiting for a boat to go by. I have often had to wait for a power boat speed by while diving, once even while on a group skin dive charter only 100 feet away from the dive boat and some wacko sped by at full speed right over me so I just stayed down an extra 20 seconds or so.

Crashed to the bottom of lake (about 30') in a unstable diving bell.

Getting severe leg cramps at depth, I tend to do this on my deepest dives when I am most rested and prepared for some unknown reason.

Cheers Wes