No Dive experience but I am signing up for Master course.

[Arcticnick]

Arcticnick - ...Equalization tends to be the biggest issue at first - even scuba divers are not used to the speed and frequency needed for freediving - plus equalizing head-down is very different. As you get down in the 30 meter range you need to be mindful of lung squeeze. A lot of us do special exercises to help the lungs and chest adjust to negative pressure. Equalizing becomes a whole 'nuther below 30m too...

Bottom line there is no substitute for experience - which takes time. I'm sure the AT courses will give you what you need to do safe dives - best to go with an empty cup (insofar as thats possible!). Then you have to make it your own.

Hiya Fondue,

Thanks for your kind input.
It is good to start to understand some of the specifics that I can expect on my course, and my new chosen path.

I would really like some practical understanding of what I can expect, both with the theory, breath hold learning techniques, as well as the diving itself. The more detail the better...although I know most people have otherwise busy lives, and can't spend endless hours on a forum, here, each day.

I have put this post, below, in another part of the forum, too but would be very interested in your opinion, please.

Sorry if you have read some of this info previously, in different threads.

Hi there,
I have just come back from Thailand, on a snorkel live-aboard boat, for 3 days, 60 km off Khao Lak, Similan Islands.
I had a great time. So great, infact, that I am packing up my life in Swedish Lapland and heading back out there, in May!

One night, after the divers and crew went to bed, whilst sitting on the transom of our boat, Lee, our guide, and me, did one warm up breath- hold, two minutes of deep breathing followed by a hold, which was none too impressive.

Then we recovered briefly and did it again.

-I held my breath for 2:16 secs.
I then let out my breath in a very controlled way and took two more deep and controled breaths, and held it again, for a further 1:36 secs. (3:52 sec with 2 breaths?)

-I feel that was amazing for my first effort. Room for improvement but a solid start.

The last time I held my breath was over 30 years ago, in a French lesson, for 2:00 min!

I am planning to do some intensive freedive courses, maybe in Koh Tao.


If I take it seriously:

-I would like to know what kind of times and depths I might realistically manage.

I am nearly 47, in pretty good shape.
I have been doing long distance winter cycling, in the Arctic (minus 17C/ 72 kms and minus 22C for 1:45 up mountains etc, and gym workouts.)

I weigh 70 kilos/ 10% fat. Good muscle mass. I eat mostly raw fruit and veg, no refined carbs. Almost no cooked food.

-Please can you stick you neck out and give me some idea what depths and bottom times I might realistically aim for.

-What do serious divers, who complete their courses, and don't drop out because of injury...manage?

 

[cdavis]

Sorry Arcticnick, you are asking the unanswerable, too much individual variation.

You sound like your breathhold ability will be quite good, you should be comfortable in the water, both things argue for above average times and depths. Equalization is an unanswerable question. If you are easy, you might aim for 50 meters or more, given time to internalize the lessons, mentally and physiologically. But that is just a guess, no real validity to it. It's all too individual and depth is not the important thing anyway.

I discovered deeper diving after a life time of freedive spearfishing, took a 4 day PFI course and progressed all of 2 feet in depth. It was the best $ I ever spent, because I learned a ton, figured out what was stopping me and progressed deeper on my own.

Its all individual, just enjoy and don't pre-judge.

Connor

 

[Kars]

Not only your equalisation ability will determine your depth, other factors as well. I think chest and diaphragm flexibility is key too. As well as the ability to relax while being in the cold dark high pressure environment so far from the safe surface.
The 50m cdavis mentioned is I think way to positive thought. Beginners should be happy with 10 - 15m, advanced should be happy with 20-35. When you're able to do that after these 6 weeks I think you've done a GREAT job!

Like stated above, practice makes perfect, you'll need time to teach your body, and your body needs time to learn and adept.

The best approach I think is to practice what you can before hand, take things slow, ENJOY the new sensations, close your eyes and fall in love with embrace of the ocean.

One little anecdote:

When Umberto went to Jaques Mayol to further his already impressive apnea abilities, Jaques told him to leave all his gauges and watches at home. He told Umberto he would not need them since he was going to teach him how to become one with the ocean. - The point being that true freediving has not to do with numbers, but about the relation one has with the ocean.

--- paraphrasing, anyone please correct me because I'm unsure about the last line.

Another thought:
I recently decided I want to become a licensed freedive instructor. I deliberately seek to be taught by many different instructors because I want to know many approaches and points of view in order to be able to communicate and teach to more people in the most effective and rewarding way.
Maybe even more than scuba diving, I think teaching freediving requires an even wider and sometimes deeper knowledge.

Love, Courage and Water,

Kars

 

[Fondueset]

CDavis knows whereof he speaks! - Though I agree with Kars about depths. I remember when 10 meters was deep for me - and most of my dives are in that vicinity. It is much more important to get comfortable at recreational depths than to achieve brief drops to 50 m and beyond.

Freediving is much more in your body than scuba - it takes just takes time. With scuba you just do not have the same forces acting on you to the same degree.

For starters I would recommend getting real friendly with your Eustachian tubes. Try to control the muscles in there so you can make them click without using any air.

While good condition is important - the ability to relax is the hard part for most people. The balance of conditioning/relaxation as factors in freediving is different than in many other activities. Deep relaxation during your breathe-ups is really key - as is avoiding hyperventilation. Being able to sense all these things really just takes time and practice.

The Master Class I took with Will Trubridge was split between he and Simon Borg-Olivier - an extremely accomplished Yoga teacher. Most of the class fell through personal bests every day - and none of us felt compelled to push it.

In each dive I leave all my expectations floating on the the surface like oil.

Who needs that crap cluttering up the profound beauty and stillness of the 'blue room'?

Its interesting to look at the Apnea Academy coursework - the depths for each level are really conservative. This reflects a focus on enjoyment over performance.

Let yourself fully enjoy each moment in that beautiful space - without imposing surface values on it. Take time to welcome and explore the new sensations.

Honestly - I wouldn't aim for depths or bottom times.

I don't.

Ever.

I wouldn't sweat being 47 .

Hey Kars - me too! I really want to take the AA course in Egypt. Unfortunately it is a long walk and I cannot yet afford to fly!

 

[cdavis]

Ah Fondueset, don't lie to the poor guy. You know 47 is too young. Sixty works much better. At least, it sure does for me.

Connor

 

[trux]

Ah Fondueset, don't lie to the poor guy. You know 47 is too young. Sixty works much better. At least, it sure does for me

You are right, Connor. I always tell to cool down to my young colleagues when they screw up a perfrormance at a competition, or hurry too much in the chase of PB's. And I explain them that they still have around 60 or 70 years of freediving career in front of them, so there is no need to win all competitions right at the beginning. It would be too boring all the resting decades.

 

[Fondueset]

Hey Trux.
I literally cannot care about PBs once I start a dive. All that is just gone!
I gotta get back to dean's blue hole. I been dreamin' about that place since before I knew it existed...

 

[rovanpera]

Nick, did we talk in a plane from BKK to HK?

 

[Arcticnick]

Nick, did we talk in a plane from BKK to HK?

Hej, Rovanpera,

I don't believe it. How brilliant to hear from you. How are you?
I hope that you are enjoying life back in Hong Kong.

You have no idea how inspiring it was to talk to you on the flight, from Bangkok to HK. I only wish we had more time to talk.

Well...Hong Kong is certainly different to Thailand, (and Arvidsjaur). I liked it, though, and would be happy to go back. I loved the Nathan Road area, (of course, don't all the tourists?) and the army surplus shops, with their clothes, and army issue, BB guns, which were amazing.

One evening, at a large, busy, and traditional Chinese restaurant I asked for the waitress to recommend a soup as a starter. Chicken feet soup!! Actually it was remarkably tasty.

My friends and I, on our last evening, went to the 3D Imax cinema, to watch Avatar. It was just fantastic.

I bought tons of New Zealand, Manuka, Honey, from a Chinese supermarket, and a couple of Manga figures to bring back home.

All in all I had a great time but was (am) not happy to be back here.

As you may have read in my previous posts, I got back 'home' to minus 35 c. It was painfully cold, despite having 'acclimatised' in Hong Kong for 5 cloudy days, first My car battery had frozen solid, one of my friends spent 7000 Kr (700 Euro) on his heating bill for just 3 weeks, another had his heating system break down altogether, and the third had his brand new car develop an engine failure warning light, and that all happened before any of us actually got back to our respective homes.

I have made my finger tips highly sensitive to the cold with my cold weather cycling and yearn for my return to a warm, sunny environment again.

I met a few free diving characters while in Koh Lak, and Koh Lanta, (and you, on our flight) and I am now completely determined to immerse myself into that world. You will be quite unaware of this but you are largely responsible for my new life direction change. Thank you.

Ever since returning to the Arctic I have done little but research free-diving, the best places to get trained, how to organise a long term multiple entry visa, sell my gear, and get a good price for my ticket.

Also, I got a good price selling my Lynx Forest Fox, snow mobile, and sledge, and have bought a one way ticket back to Phuket, on 31st May. I can't wait. I think then that I am will share my time between Koh Lak and wherever I do my dive training.

When you told me about your free diving courses, in the plane, I couldn't understand how a simple free diving could be so involved and detailed.
I used to be an active scuba Divemaster, in Mexico's Yucatan, (I probably told you several times on our short trip...it's my main achievement in my life.) So I am pretty comfortable in water.

My plan is to gain all the experience I can, recreationally, stress free, whilst having fun. Then if I love it, as I expect, then I might eventually consider teaching. The advice here has been very sensible and suggests taking it step by step, without hurrying, and let the theory absorb and the physical and mental aspects develop, over time. Also that way I can spread out the cost of the courses.

My scuba Divemaster and Instructor licenses are now inactive and so I have to refresh them both, if I want to continue working in that world. It would be a lengthy and involved process and I am now wondering if, perhaps, eventually, teaching free diving might be the way to go, instead.
Of course I realise I have never really even left the surface, on this journey but I am super fired up, and for the first time in ages excited about life again and my new direction.

-Please let me know if you have any tips or advice. And know of a great training facility, you might recommend to me.

-Do you also recommend staying away from hyperventilation of any sort?

It is tremendous to write to you here. Thank you for getting in contact.
All the best to you.

Nick
PS: I am saving up for some fins like yours.

 

[rovanpera]

Ha, a small world it is!

I'll send you my email in a private message.

In Thailand I can highly recommend the AIDA courses from We Freedive. Richard and Sarah are top-notch instructors.

And Umberto's book is good to have: [ame="http://www.amazon.com/Manual-Freediving-Underwater-Single-Breath/dp/1928649270"]Manual Of Freediving[/ame]

I'm not recommending any kind of hyperventilation...

 

[plachalam]

Hi Articnick-
would just like to reccomend that you check out Richard and Sara of We freedive, they are teaching with Blue Planet Divers out of Koh Lanta. Richard is a certified instructor with both AIDA and Apnea Academy and has a teaching skill and love for the sport that really shows. I am a long time freediver and spearfisherman (30 years plus) who had never taken a course. I signed up with my 16 year old daughter to take the AIDA 2 and 3 star freediver course in January and had a great time, learned a lot, and will continue with the formal training. Richard was also able to coach an amazing preformance out of my daughter, had her down to 16 meters and doing 2minute + statics all within the space of a few days of training. Like was mentioned in another post, it really makes a difference who the instructor is. (Thanks again Richard) Check out their website, you can find them here on this forum.

 

[Sherrin]

Hi,
At Apnea Total you'll do some classroom work for an hour or so starting around 10-10.30am. You'll learn about breathing, safety and what to do and what not to do in the water. They have their own boat so after class you'll walk across the road to the beach and head out to the dive site, about 10 mins away.
The instructors will set up the lines and floats and you'll be paired up with a buddy. In the beginning you'll be in the water with an instructor the whole time who will accompany you under and give you feedback. I think the maximum dive is 12-15metres.
They have all the equipment you need.
In the advanced class you'll learn more sophisticated breathing techniques and more about your own physiology - contractions, equalising, lung squeeze etc. The dive line is around 34 metres and you'll have an instructor in the water with you. As you progress it'll be just you and your buddy. There is a big emphasis on learning to freedive so as to minimise the risks.
You'll also do training for statics in the sea in shallow water.
Monica and Eusbio want you to love freediving as much as they do. I got to use Eusbio's cool watch so i could see my depths and Monica let me use her amazing long freediving fins.
I also want to get AIDA certified. But you need to be super fit. So i plan on doing the Apnea Total Masters course and then going somewhere else (Egypt) to get certified. I also think it's important to learn from as many people as possible.
Good luck!
Sherrin

 

[Sherrin]

I forgot to mention that while on Ko Tao i had some one-on-one yoga breathing lessons with Kester Lunney that i found very helpful. He's Scottish with blonde dreads and can be found on the beach near Blue Wind Resort on Sairee Beach.

 

[DivingDane]

interesting that yoiu say that you have to be superfit to do AIDA courses? fitness definetly helps however the AIDA courses are geared at all levels of divers with the 2* focused on discovering real freediving and as you progress through the levels, you begin \to explore and realise that freediving becomes more and more about the inner journey than the journey to the bottom plate.

i have done courses with quite a few people;
- DiveR
- FDI
- AIDA
- Freedive Biz is on the cards for this year as well.

and believe that either AIDA or FDI courses are brilliant and are the best options (cant speak for Freedive Biz yet as i havent done a course yet but have seen some of th content and looks very thorough)

depths are relativly un important although all of us have a goal for the future and that is important its just very important not to set your self a time limit. i spent years diving to no more than 20-25m and recently have been training harder and undeerstanding myslef more which has lead me on a new path exceedeing 40m and well and truely on the way deeper, but it has taken a long time and the body takes along time to adapt and feel Comfrotable at depth (for me anyway).

i have alson heard VERY good things about Richard Wonka's courses as well, and i would love to do an Apnea Acadamy course with him to see what that direction can teach me aswell.

still so much to learn, 10-20-40-60 years i cant imagine even in 40 years will i have learned everything there is to know about freediving!

DD

 

[Sherrin]

Hi DD,
my friend did all the AIDA courses but couldn't pass the **** course. He had to swim 70metres dynamic - 55 metres was his max.
I can't think of a better way to prepare for the AIDA courses than spending 5-6 weeks on Ko Tao going freediving every day with great people who want me to enjoy freediving and will help me improve.
Like you say - there's so much to learn!
Sherrin

 

[demasoni]

If I take it seriously:

-I would like to know what kind of times and depths I might realistically manage.


The answer to the static question IMO depends a lot on how much you learn to hyperventilate. In other words, how much Co2 you exhale. I have no experience with Apnea Total, only PFI and FII, but from my experience and from other students who are taking first time classes, and other instructors, MOST people get around 4-5 min in static with a taught breath-up. Did I stick my neck out enough on that one? :t

Depth is much more complicated and your depth in the beginning will most likely not be limited by breath hold, rather equalization or something else. Want a more specific number? Well, here it goes (wait, let me put on my cardboard bullseye and tape on it well with some duct tape), OK, the answer is - 30-35m only because that is the limit of equalization of MOST people I know that haven't yet learned frenzel and it is around this depth that they hit residual volume and feel all sorts of new sensations.

I'm not a freediving instructor, this is just what I've noticed.

Good luck and I'm envious of exploring Thai waters!

 

[Arcticnick]

If I take it seriously:

-I would like to know what kind of times and depths I might realistically manage.

If I take it seriously:

-I would like to know what kind of times and depths I might realistically manage.


...MOST people get around 4-5 min in static with a taught breath-up. Did I stick my neck out enough on that one? :t ...

...OK, the answer is - 30-35m only because that is the limit of equalization of MOST people I know that haven't yet learned frenzel and it is around this depth that they hit residual volume and feel all sorts of new sensations.

I'm not a freediving instructor, this is just what I've noticed.

Hej Demasoni,

Thanks for your thoughtful support and encouraging words.

Thank you, particularly for risking your opinion in such a sensitive and politically charged arena

It is not often that people say what they really think, especially in public. It is good for me to start learning about argument for hyperventilation, also.

You say, '4-5 minutes'. That sounds like forever!

30-35 metres sounds a bit disappointing, though.
I am anticipating spending many years regularly practicing freediving (I usually immerse myself fully in whatever I happen to be doing) and so hope that I will become truly fit, developing the required mental and physical techniques so that I will overcome the hurdles, like equalizing.


-If I can hold my breath for just 2:16, (with little practice) do you think I could realistically do a static 4-5 mins?


-Can you tell me, please, what % difference does hyperventilation make on time/depth, over other techniques?


-Can't the Frenzel technique be applied whilst using a nose clip, even at 30+ meters?


- What's the big deal with equalizing at depth, when the greatest depth/ pressure change is nearest the surface?


- Is the Valsalva maneuver no use at depth?


-Can you tell me anything about any other barriers?


-Residual volume?


-What are PFI and FII, please ?


I am excited to imagine how my new u/w world will develop over time and, of course, part of that is to improve my dive time and depth. I wouldn't be normal if I didn't have some eye to my max potential. Well, I am glad to report, that I am not normal...but I am still interested in what I might one day accomplish, in freediving.

More thanks, in hopeful anticipation I appreciate your opinion.


Mega-regs.

Nick

 

[Arcticnick]

http://mauiobserver.blogspot.com/

Cool Blog.

Inspiring.
Good layout.
Easy to view.
Really nice pix.
Well written.
Interesting info, too.

Maui seems like the place!

Hiking in the caldera sounds like a must do thing. You have me thinking.

Swop?

 

[DivingDane]

HYPERVENTILATION is NOT the answer for static, Dynamic or any other discipline, yes it decreases CO2 in the blood which is one of the major factors in the bodies requirement to breath however, Hyperventilation also increases Heartrate greatly which burns O2 faster also reduces dive response (BAD, Dive response is GOOD) also brings the point at which the urge to breath and the Blackout zone too close together.

A relaxed breath up with or without packing will lead to a much greater potential.

If you want numbers short term then sure:
4min static after a couple of months training is VERY doable as is 30+m, some people are lucky and numbers come easy however.

Long term goals for almost anybody are nearly limitless, there is no reason after 2years or even less you could be doing 6-7min statics and 50m+ in constant weight.

age is NOT a limiting factor there are aat least 2 70+ year olds that are diving their age.

basically there is very little limit to what you can achieve!

this should start some interesting comments.

no offence Sharrin but your friend by the sounds of it was not ready to take the 4* course, if she had completed the 3* first and then trained for a period of time before things may have been much easier. with small amount of training 70m comes very quickly in dynamic (my girlfrined with no previous experience of any kind managed 70m within the first 6 weeks of training, however training was incramental and often, building on the previous dives step by step.

Freediving is not like scuba where taking one course after the next gains you certification. freediving takes time to adapt between learning new techniques, particularly the 4* which is very much about learning to identify and overcome personal limiting factors, which you need to have trained for a while to know what these limiting factors are, doing ANY freediving course does not magically get you to a set depth or time, but gives us the learning tools to improve our diving.

 

[DivingDane]

Arcticnick you appear very preoccupied by the depth and time...

rather than us try and tell you what you should be able to diver to (impossible) please tell us WHAT YOU want to dive to.

you obviously have a number in your head which you would like to get to, what is it? and in what time frame are you wanting to see results.

the reason i say this is because in reality there is no real reason why given the dedication and time you cant challenge the swedish national records (very serious dives) or even world records the bottom is the only limit we have as divers.... and as a friend always says "when you get to the bottom? take a shovel down and dig deeper"

best of luck with your journey and i know of said it before, dont get caught up in the numbers they will come when the love for the dive grows the dpeths wil grow as well.

ALSO you also have a VERY strong group of Freedivers in Sweden, why not start your training there first with a Freedive Biz course before travelling over seas, get some practise in soyou hit the water kicking when you travel. Sebastien on this forum has soo much knowledge to offer it would be a shame not to gain as much as you can from him when he is so close to home for you.

DD