No warm ups

[dannyor]

Hi. I'm a beginner free diver. I have started practicing static apnea about a month ago. I tried using static apnea tables that I found on the web and reached 4 minutes max. Then I heard of no warm-ups methods spoken of in the forum (mostly related to names like Tom Sietas). What I understood from it is that static tables are there because people are trying to avoid the physical tough sensations related to the max attempts and that if somebody trains in such a way that every breath hold is a max one then new possibilities are opened. Did I get this right? Does anyone has experience with such methods?
I tried a series of 3 max attempts. the first was 2:30 than 3:45 and 4:06.
I'd really appreciate any advice on the subject since I'm a newbie and would like to develop myself as best as I can.

Thanks in advance

 

[kevtron]

Wow. Maybe I should go for a couple max attempts in a row. My PB at this point is only 2:30 and that was getting painful. You had a crazy big jump from the first to second. That's pretty cool.

 

[KatFish]

Yes, push every dive. Remember that your 2nd and 3rd are no longer considered "no warm up". Eventually you'll do as much on the first as any other and not have to do any more.

No warm up is considered harder in static as you need to be able to push through a massive dive response and potentially if you struggle to relax you'll experience large contractions. However, with time you can learn to deal with it, recognise it's just your dive response and it helps, and you will be very clear headed later in the dive, therefore you can push through further. When I switched to no warm up statics it took me about 6 months to get used to them. Now my contractions start around 4 mins, I've done over 7 and they can feel really wonderful (when I'm relaxed).

 

[aris ioannidis]

so, you may go out and do a PB in dynamic without warm up?

i am asking because i find it very hard to do that... I normally need two warm up dives to get physically and emotionally prepared.

or is it just in my head and i just need to HTFU?

 

[dannyor]

KatFish, thanks for your informative reply.
May I deduce that you always practice in water? (If I'm correct, DR happens only there).

 

[Salehthefish]

Thnx dannyor for this nice topic!!! I have started tables like 3 weeks ago and i managed to get to 3:47 seconds after making CO2... 1 hour ago i have tried the no warming way and it goes like this first attempt 1:59 seconds 2nd attempt 3:30 seconds 3rd attempt 3:50 seconds!!! one point is that i do not know how many contractions i can hold so shall i keep holding till black out to know that? also i have friend who get the first couple of contractions then it goes and he will quit at the second couple of contractions any advise on both cases i would appreciate that?

 

[Kars]

"No warm up" approaches are in my view NOT for beginners. Not even for intermediate levels.
These divers have not yet got used to strong contractions, extreme high CO2 levels.
For the beginners and intermediate level divers, feel free to experiment under capable supervision, but keep track of your mental exhaustion, as pushing yourself too much too often can build up some negative associations, and physical exhaustion. "Static burn out".
As a principle I think beginners need more dives and preparation, as you progress it will build down. For instance for my old Dutch Static record, I did one short empty lungs dive, and a short packed-full dive, than the max. My latest pbs' they all have in common having a no apnea preparation. (even for deep diving)
Note that I say no apnea preparation, meaning I do perform muscle warm-up, and some light stretching.

My current opinion in regard to static training.

For beginners table A and B are great. 0 - 3'00"
For intermediate's table A and B are good, but you may want to shorten them in trade of longer times and less repetition. 3'00" - 5'00"
For people doing more than 5 + minutes no apnea warmups is becoming interesting.

Have fun!

Kars

 

[azapa]

Kars, I have to disagree a little. A no warm up dive CAN be tried (experimented with) for a beginner.

Firstly (and bestestly it's almost impossible to black out (of course, please, you still need the same good safety watching you)

Secondly, and very coolestly: you do go a long way or at least as far as a best effort warmed up dive.

I always ask beginners to do a no-warm up dive in pool sessions, half do well

 

[dannyor]

Kars and azapa. Thank you very much for your advice.
Kars, I'll stick to the tables as you advised.
However, what do you think about experimenting with diaphragm contractions (not during regular static/dynamic training)?
Sometimes, I simply exhale (in order to get to the contractions sooner) and wait for the contractions to see how they feel like and to earn some seconds of experiencing them. I found out that way, that playing a bit with the diaphragm changes the sensation a bit.

 

[Kars]

HI Apaza, I think we may not disagree much.
I think it's fine to try some out, and indeed the beginners won't be near BO, and may indeed find themselves amazed of doing a near pb without an extensive preparation. A very good awareness.

I mend for structural NO Apnea Warm Up training. I think it's fine for an occasional try out for beginners, but it's not my recommended way as the best structural way of learning, growing in the sport for beginners and intermediate divers.

edit, adding a few words for Dannyor

Training the contractions is very sensible thing to do. FRC statics may be a good way to train this, but I wouldn't know what the best approach is now. Can some help Danny and me out explaining what the best training is for learning to handle contractions and why?

 

[watts]

I think its important to have predictable and progressive training for beginners and experienced divers sometimes trying to slow newbies breathhold striving for lack of a better word until they aquire more experience and safety but to limit what comes naturaly ie no warm up is silly.

 

[aris ioannidis]

Been trying the no warm up approach lately and I think it starts to work! I am very happy about it because it seems that it can be so much easier this way - relax and breath up for a while - do your dive - and you done in maybe 15 minutes!

i only need to find what to do next to justify the trip to the pool :thankyou

 

[chrismar]

I teach no warm-ups to beginners once they can do more than 3:30 static and 50m dynamic (generally their second training session). Given the success that I've seen our new divers have, I don't see why no warm-ups would be only for advanced divers?

 

[Kars]

I teach no warm-ups to beginners once they can do more than 3:30 static and 50m dynamic (generally their second training session). Given the success that I've seen our new divers have, I don't see why no warm-ups would be only for advanced divers?

Apart from the arguments already mentioned, let me repeat one.

A beginner is not used to high CO2 and will bail out after just a short time in the struggle phase. When you're a beginner and you're diving no apnea warmup, you'll encounter the struggle phase very soon, shortening the very pleasurable easy glide phase. While a sadist like to go for as much pain as possible, other people like to time to adjust and ease themselves into the magic of an all out long dive.

I would suggest to try it, while at the same time encouraging to not push themselves into a negative breathhold = suffering association.

I've seen people building and suffering from this build up mental block, and I've been touched by it myself. It's an form of overtraining.
So my advice is to go 'slow' and have many little pb's, and have much time in the pleasure glide phase.

btw, I don't regard people doing more than 3'30" beginners in dealing with CO2. But I'm sure they are novices in most other aspects.

 

[chrismar]

I think you just need to hit your beginners with sticks more often. If they keep pulling out of dives, a sound thrashing should do the trick. After a while, CO2 doesn't seem so bad...

 

[Vas]

Tell you honestly guys. Wnen I tried the no warm up approach it struck me, why I didnt do it before. Ok, contractions are hard, but you really feel that the risk of blacking out is so much less, because you are fresh and you havent used any physical recourses from your body. At least I have never been blacking out when I started this approach. Before it was quite a few black outs, ask chrismar). For me its working in dynamics in pool, but static is still hard without warm ups...