Other workouts

[Vas]

Well you are, Dave)

 

[Vas]

But honestly, Dave, what is your opinion on that question? I think that cardio training will result in slower heart rate in rest, and this should be good for breathhold. But I am not sure, I have minor knoweldge in physiology.

 

[Mullins]

Yeah I'm a bit puzzled about the fat thing though....

On the cardio question, and in a really general sense - have a think about what you're asking your body to do in cardio vs freediving. The demands of the two are pretty much diametrically opposed. In cardio you're adapting to use as much of an inexaustible resource (O2) as possible, with priority going to the peripheral muscles. In freediving, you're adapting to being very very careful with a limited resource (O2 again...) and the peripheral muscles fall right to the bottom of the priority heap with the brain shooting to the top.

People talk a lot about the 'efficiency' you gain from cardio. I think this is likely to be a misrepresentation and that the actual percentage gains in efficiency would be fairly low (not to mention targeted at a different metabolic state, i.e. one of high workload...). I haven't really looked into this but I think it's more likely the improvements are largely down to effectiveness, which as corporate types will know is a very different and resource-hungry beast. Why be efficient with oxygen when you can just pump more through?

 

[Mullins]

Quick example, from Wikipedia, the source of all knowledge:

"Aerobic fitness level, a product of cardiovascular exercise, while previously thought to have effect on BMR, has been shown in the 1990s not to correlate with BMR, when fat-free body mass was adjusted for"

BMR being Basal Metabolic Rate, or energy consumption when at rest.

Not that I'd take that as gospel, but it's an indication. A stronger heart will have a larger stroke volume so won't have to beat as often. But I wonder what its efficiency is like. Maybe a bit better - but if so, wouldn't that alter the BMR?

Also, studies on elite cyclists have found that there is an inverse relationship between efficiency and VO2 max. Same with runners. But if you listened to people on spearfishing boards you'd swear the two were directly correlated...

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12471319

It could just be one compensating for the other, as these researchers conclude. But it's interesting that nobody has both.

 

[Vas]

Thanks, Dave. Thats a thing to think on. But then for me it is even more interesting why all the marathon runners , long distance skiers etc have a slow heart rate when at rest. At least thats what they say to me.

 

[bobdonny]

Is this one of those things that cannot be decided? Can the significant difference in theory prove to be negligible in reality?

Seems to me most people have not reached their mental peak (point at which they are using their mind to control and relax the body 100% ), and any improvement will come from mental preparedness and relaxation not pre-training. Only once you have eliminated any bias due to mental preparation and relaxation can you get benchmark levels of the difference between a cardio vs non cardio training.

I don't know much about the theory of freediving but I know a fair bit of physiology from martial arts and I am also currently trying to design a psychological experiment right now for my phd. The mind is a crazy thing!

This is a very interesting topic

 

[Vas]

I have read carefully again what you wrote Dave. I got you. Thanks. The heart becomes larger in size because of the cardio workouts, so more blood is pumped trough and that is leading to slower heart rate in rest. You are right - that is nothing to do with the efficiency of preserving O2.

 

[The_frogger]

Nicely diverted there Mullins We still would love to know how you top guys train.

 

[Killa]

Why would buoyancy make any difference??

easier to go down?

for the up part bouyancy would help, but I'd say the pros of having more usable muscle mass are > the pros of bouyancy of fat

obviously, bouyancy doesn't make a difference in swimming pool disciplines, although I'd still prefer lean muscle vs fat...

 

[Erik]

I think the point is that a fit person would be a better freediver than a very unfit one, however at the elite end of the spectrum, too much aerobic exercise could remove a small percentage of potential improvement capacity.

 

[kevtron]

I think the point is that a fit person would be a better freediver than a very unfit one, however at the elite end of the spectrum, too much aerobic exercise could remove a small percentage of potential improvement capacity.

Nice summary

 

[Siku]

Ok so that's heart function, what about lung function? Is that a factor that can be improved by cardio and will it increase performance?

I was reading the manual yesterday and noticed it recommends quick response muscles (built through sprinting) rather than slow response muscle (distance). Apparently this is needed for manouvering underwater, and can be built by... weights!

I'm off to sit on my arse and do tables...

 

[Mullins]

easier to go down?

for the up part bouyancy would help, but I'd say the pros of having more usable muscle mass are > the pros of bouyancy of fat

obviously, bouyancy doesn't make a difference in swimming pool disciplines, although I'd still prefer lean muscle vs fat...

Won't make any difference in depth disciplines either. Take a really fat guy and a really skinny guy with identical lung volume and no suit. They both set their neutral point @10m using weights. Of course, the fat guy needs a huge weightbelt.

On the surface they'll have identical positive buoyancy. On the bottom (say, 40m) they'll have identical negative buoyancy. No difference.

 

[Mullins]

One thing that is fairly clear is that it's possible to be very fit and a terrible freediver (i.e. prone to BO very early, every time). Conversely it's possible to be very unfit and a gifted freediver. I see both fairly regularly. In practice, I just haven't seen a link between the two.

Bobdonny, I don't really think mental 'control' is a very important variable. Many freedivers are able to stay relaxed and maintain form under stress, so it just comes down to what their bodies can do. Of course, if people are bailing out early that skews results, so experiments should really only deal with performances taken to LMC - or a certain O2 saturation.

 

[Erik]

I'm off to sit on my arse and do tables...

:blackeye
:t

 

[Mullins]

Ok so that's heart function, what about lung function?

What do you mean by 'lung function'? If you're using it in the normal medical sense then certain bits of it, like FVC, are relevant to freediving but I don't think aerobic exercise will alter those very much, if at all. Other components are less relevant to us. Take FEV1/FVC, for instance. I score very low on that, as do many other freedivers. I also 'fail' a normal lung function test on my RV/TLC ratio, which is only 10% (vs 24% average in the rest of the population).

Then there is gas exchange. Aerobic athletes need very effective gas exchange to swap CO2 for O2 as fast as possible. We don't need this at all - we've got several minutes to extract the oxygen from a single breath. No rush.

 

[Vas]

One thing that is fairly clear is that it's possible to be very fit and a terrible freediver (i.e. prone to BO very early, every time). Conversely it's possible to be very unfit and a gifted freediver. I see both fairly regularly. In practice, I just haven't seen a link between the two.

Bobdonny, I don't really think mental 'control' is a very important variable. Many freedivers are able to stay relaxed and maintain form under stress, so it just comes down to what their bodies can do. Of course, if people are bailing out early that skews results, so experiments should really only deal with performances taken to LMC - or a certain O2 saturation.

What is LMC?

 

[Mullins]

Loss of Motor Control, or 'samba'. Precursor to a blackout. Something to be avoided really - but unfortunately LMC or BO are the only really solid indicators that a diver has reached your performance limit. Well, there are other indicators but they're a bit subjective (tunnel vision, headspins etc).

 

[Vas]

Got it, thanks. So, as I see from all mentioned above, cardio workouts does not lead to a better apnea performance. At least within top freedivers.