• Welcome to the DeeperBlue.com Forums, the largest online community dedicated to Freediving, Scuba Diving and Spearfishing. To gain full access to the DeeperBlue.com Forums you must register for a free account. As a registered member you will be able to:

    • Join over 44,280+ fellow diving enthusiasts from around the world on this forum
    • Participate in and browse from over 516,210+ posts.
    • Communicate privately with other divers from around the world.
    • Post your own photos or view from 7,441+ user submitted images.
    • All this and much more...

    You can gain access to all this absolutely free when you register for an account, so sign up today!

overtraining & rest days in static

Thread Status: Hello , There was no answer in this thread for more than 60 days.
It can take a long time to get an up-to-date response or contact with relevant users.
My dry STA is 20 sec longer and I also can hardly get samba during dry STA. Maybe skin surface ventilates during dry STA, too?
 
Last edited:
Maybe skin surface ventilates during dry STA, too?
A bit yes, but it won't make much difference - in normal state the cutaneous breathing represents around 1% of O2 intake. The question is how it then looks like during a long apnea. On one side, the continuos intake would increase the importance of the cutaneous breathing, on the other hand the vasoconstriction would suppress it.

More likely influence is the one mentioned by Mikko - if you do not use a noseclip, some fresh air always enters the airways.
 
More likely influence is the one mentioned by Mikko - if you do not use a noseclip, some fresh air always enters the airways.

I noticed a huge difference doing dry statics with and without noseclip. With the noseclip I feel more suffocated at the end of the static... Maybe doing without the noseclip is a bit of cheating rofl
 
when I got used to dry static, they were totally different from wet statics. I use same preparation (no worm up) but contractions come later. I felt cold at the begining and hot at the end (from CO2 perhaps) also during dry static I can not relax, because my body is packed like a baloon and I have to manage what to do with that all the time before contractions come, then Im focusing on contractions. At the end of dry static I usually sit down. I use noseclip all the time. My best dry static were about a minute longer then wet and I dont mention any samba during any dry static just laryngospasm time to time.
 
My dry times with and without nose clip are very similar, almost identical. However this is not the case for all divers. Some people I know (perhaps unconsciously) exchange air via their nose/sinuses. In those people, the difference between dry and wet is up to 2 minutes! Maybe during contractions the air exchange happens?
 
Without noseclip, during hard contractions, I usually exhale involuntary and I hardly can keep the air not coming out... a waste of static!
 

This sounds very very much like Buteyko "cleansing reactions".
 

There is a very simple way to tell if you are on a good or poor "CO2 mood" that day, but everybody laughs at it. It is call the "Buteyko Control Pause", especially the “Morning Control Pause”.

If you wake up a day, measure the morning control pause and that is 10 seconds less than your current average morning control pause, forget about getting a new PB that day, because you are not going to make it no matter how hard you try. That day your body is not in a good CO2 mood...

If on the other hand, you wake up and your morning control pause is a few seconds more than usual, go for it, that’s the day to try to establish a new personal record.
 
Reactions: Kars
Very interesting Nirgelep!

Have you got any insights how to detect overtraining?
Have you got any ideas how to recover from overtraining?
Any ideas how to prevent overtraining?
 
Reactions: abdessalam
Very interesting Nirgelep!

Have you got any insights how to detect overtraining?
Have you got any ideas how to recover from overtraining?
Any ideas how to prevent overtraining?


Hi everyone.

I am new to this forum and this is my third post, so I would like to introduce myself (sorry I didn’t do it in my first post). My name is Blas Pelegrin and I am writing from Spain, so excuses in advance for my English.

I am not by any means a professional apneist. My dry static PB is 5’57”. I never tested my best wet static though. I am mostly a spearfisher. In shallow water (<10 m) where I fish I am able to consistently do 2’30”ish dives with less than 2’ recovery time between dives.

Having said so, I have to recognize that I know very little about “overtraining”, in fact, I know nothing. Sorry Kars, but I don’t know how to detect, recover or prevent overtraining.

What I know “almost” for sure, is that a “certain percentage” of what people consider overtrading is not real overtrading but “cleansing reactions”.

I’ll try to make my point clear, though is not going to be easy.

I think that people in general think of the “path of improvement” this way:

4 steps forward +

3 steps forward +

2 steps forward +

1 step forward +

1 step forward (it takes longer) +

1 step forward (it takes a little longer) +

1 step forward (it’s takes even longer) +



So for example, if we’re talking about static apnea, let’s say a newbie is going to have a PB of 2’. Then, with some hard training he’s going to achieve 4’ in a short period of time (“short” is personal for everyone, may be days or months). Then he’s going to hit 5’30”. Then he’s going to hit 6’30”. Then his PB will be 7’. And then 7’15”… and every new time is going to take him longer and be more difficult for him to achieve a smaller increase in time. And this is the way it looks if you “overlook certain steps” on the way…
 
 
IMO it doesn’t work that way, but this:

4 steps forward +

2 steps backwards +

2 steps forward +

3 steps forward +

1,5 steps backwards +

1,5 steps forward +

2 steps forward +

1 step backward +

1 step forward +

2 steps forward (it takes longer) +

1 step backward +

1 step forward +

2 steps forwards (it takes a little longer) +

1 step backward +

1 step forward +

2 steps forward (it takes even longer) +



So coming back to the same static apnea example, this guy is going to have an initial PB of 2’. Then he is going to get a PB of 4’ (4 steps forward). But for some time, is going to be impossible for him to even reach 3’ (this is the 2 steps backwards). At this point he starts thinking that you can’t get your PB every single time because that is in fact… your “personal best”. He still doesn’t think of “overtraining” at all.

But he keeps on training hard and faithfully and he comes back to his PB of 4’ and for a while he is happy because now he’s getting around his PB of 4’ on regular basis (this is the 2 steps forward).

He keeps training really hard and one day he makes a new PB of 6’30 (this is the 3 steps forward). After that, there will be a period of time in which, for example, he is unable to pass 5’30” (this is the 1,5 step backward). How is that possible, he asks to himself. He thinks again that a PB is a PB and you don’t make a new one every day, but at the same time, he may start thinking that he is training very hard (he is indeed) and that “overtraining is taking its toll”.

But he doesn’t give up and keeps on training. Then, suddenly, one day he is hitting 6’30 again, and surprisingly, not just one time. He is now doing between 6’15” and 6’45 regularly (this is the 1,5 step forward). Now he is not asking himself how this is possible because he realizes that the same happened to him when he hit the 4’ mark. The cycle… record + pull back + hitting regularly last record has repeated.

But the new 6’45” PB is not enough for him (and it shouldn’t). He wants to push his body further and know what his limit is. So he continues training but this time even harder. Finally he manages to get a new 7’ PB mark. This starts to be a real good one, isn’t it? And he thinks he is going to hit 7’30” in a few weeks…

He keeps trying and trying but 7’30” doesn’t come. Not only that, he hasn’t been able to improve his 7’ PB by just 1 single second. What am I saying, the thing is even worse! Sometimes when he tries, he is not even able to reach 6’15” which is even lower than his former 6’30” record. How is that possible, he asks to himself time and again. But now he forgets about the “record + pull back + hit record regularly again cycle” and thinks “definitely, I am overtrading!!!”

End of fictional history.

I am not saying that you are not overtrading, maybe you are. What I am saying is that “part” of all those “pullbacks” is caused by “cleansing reactions”.

What does this mean?

In other to make a significant improvement in your static apnea, you have to “permanently” increase your tolerance to CO2. We achieve this though training (and this usually means 2 steps forward and a new significant PB). Every time that you make a “significant and permanent” increase in CO2 tolerance, the Borh effects kicks in and now your body has a much greater amount of O2 to work with.

When the body has this much bigger amount of O2 to work with (thanks to permanent higher levels of CO2), it doesn’t think of your next attempt to break a new record, it just “cares for you and your health”. And what does it (the body) do? It thinks it’s time to clean the “house” and get rid of all “dirt and bugs”, what it couldn’t do before because it lacked enough “stamina” (body stamina = O2).

So the body starts to get rid of all waste substances it finds in the body (dirt) and at the same time it starts fighting any king of virus and bacteria (bugs) it finds in the body, even if those virus and bacteria weren’t causing big problem at the time (because I am not going to wait until I get eaten alive by cockroaches, I am going to kill any cockroach that I find now, now that I have the stamina to do so).

And it is at this point that “cleansing reactions” appear.

My (and this is personal) cleansing reactions include:

- Colds, catarrhs and flu, even during summer time! (I am getting rid of bugs buddy, my body tells me…)

- Insomnia.

- Lack of energy.

- Bad mood.

- Darker and smellier urine. (I am getting rid of dirt, buddy, my body tells me again…)

- Higher frequency stools (sitting in the toilet up to 7 or 8 times a day) with darker and smellier poo. (What do you want me to do, I am getting rid of all this junk, buddy, my body keeps repeating me…)

Insomnia, lack of energy and bad mood are cause by the fact that the body is “busy” cleaning the house, so don’t ask him to pay attention to anything else, and this includes you attempt to make a new PB or record. The body gets “moody” when someone (yourself) tries to distract it from its work (cleaning in this case). In fact, think about it, wouldn’t you get moody as well if you had somebody trying to interrupt your work continuously?

For other people there may be other different cleansing reactions. In fact, if you suffer from any condition or syndrome, you are going to get worse at that syndrome or condition during the time the cleansing reactions are taking place.

Once cleansing reactions are over, the body continues to where it was before (this means 1 step forward) and you are feeling much healthier, your are hitting your last record again and again and you feel confident and energized to get a new PB. And if you keep on training hard, the cycle will start again…

The bad news is that you know when the cleansing reactions appear (if you pay enough attention to your body and listen to it) but you “do not know” when they are going to finish. It can last from one single day to weeks, or even months in some cases! It’s entirely person dependant. Sad but true.

What I am trying to say is that whenever you feel stuck in your apnea and in a kind of pullback phase, it may be overtraining (I don’t know) but… it may also be cleansing reactions!!!

The path of improvement is not a steady one (look at economy, stock exchange and life itself). There are and there will be ups and downs. There will be pullbacks in your apnea, but if you know the reasoning behind them you will be ready to cope with them in a more positive way. And you will know that if you keep on training, unless you have reached you very top, a new cycle will begin.

This is the reason why timing your apnea for competitions is so difficult. You don’t want to be in the “2 steps forward” phase (because the “1 step backward can happen any time”) nor in the “1 step backward” phase (because you are actually underperforming until cleansing finishes).

You want to be in the “1 step forward” phase so you know for sure what you are able to achieve and if you push you body further and are lucky enough, you can make a significant new PB through the beginning of a new “2 steps forward”.

The man who noticed these cleansing reactions for the first time was Doctor Konstantin Buteyko, some 55 years ago… (when Jaques Mayol was barely 30 years old).

He tried to cure asthma through “increasing” and “keeping” CO2 levels in blood.

He spoke about diet and physical exercise as playing a very important role in healing.

He also talked about “reduced breathing 24/7” as the best way to increase and maintain CO2 level. Reduced breathing is nothing but “sub-tidal breathing”. How many among us train their apnea 24/7? Well, this guy was doing this 5 decades ago! Yes, you have listened right, he was training his apnea 24/7.

Buteyko’s Control Pause is a way to measure your “CO2 mood” at any moment. A Control Pause is nothing but a “FRC apnea until first contraction appears”. We have change the name today… even though Buteyko named it Control Pause, again, 5 decades ago!

Current Buteyko practitioner have created a new exercise called “Extended Pauses” though Doctor Buteyko never used Extended Pauses. Extended Pauses are nothing but “no warm up no breath up maximum FRC apnea followed by reduced breathing”. This Extended Pauses exercises achieve the same results as CO2 tables! In fact they are just a different version of CO2 tables.

To sum up. Buteyko teachings have many good things. IMO:

- If you don’t practice “reduced breathing” 24/7, you are not trying to keep within yourself all CO2 that you trained so hard to get.

- If aside from your training, you breathe though your mouth the rest of the day, you are giving back all CO2 you trained so hard to get.

- If for whatever reason you sleep with your mouth open, while you are sleeping you are throwing to the rubbish bin all the training you did during the day. Tap your mouth if needed.

- If you speak too much without paying attention to the way you speak, you are also getting rid too much of that “precious” (yes, I say precious) CO2 you trained so hard to get.

I want to make clear that what I have said is my personal opinion and it’s based in what I have read and experienced myself.
 
Cookies are required to use this site. You must accept them to continue using the site. Learn more…