Packing and equalizing

[sjurba]

Hi! I have quite recently figured out how to pack,but I'm having some problems equalizing when Im "fully" packed.I very rarely have any troubble equalizing normally and I usually use this tounge technique thing (frenzel?). But when packing its like one of my ears clogs up.

 

[fflupo]

why do you pack?

 

[sjurba]

It seems to give me some extra meters on my dynamics,pluss it defenetly helps add to my statics,would be nice to add a bit on my deep dives as well...

 

[sgnips]

how many meters are we talking about? and where did you find them?
i mean, did you get from 50 to 60 in dynamic or from 100 to 110 or from 150 to 160 or else?
in the first two cases you don't need any packing
in the third case we might talk about it, even if i'm not sure you really need it

the same for static and depth

anyway, it might be that packing you lose some relaxation in the mouth zone or near it which compromises in some way you equalization
equalization involves a lot of muscles some of which we don't even have direct control on and it is fairly easy to mess up things
you simply have to find your way to eq in those new conditions

 

[sjurba]

I probably dont need to pack,but have this idea that it will increase my lungvolume over time? I only pack in the pool and in static training,and I only compete with myself....

 

[sgnips]

it will increase my lungvolume over time?

i have no scientific basis on this, but i don't think it will

 

[Simos]

Packing in theory should make equalising easier... Must be loss of relaxation because of the extra air you are trying to hold in...
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[Bill]

I wish that I could figure this out. In theory packing can't have a negative affect on anything below 5-10 meters, even less in my case where max pack only adds 20%. It shouldn't care because the depth that I can get air for clearing should increase 20% or if I'm limited by lung volume/squeeze, it is the same proportion, 6/5. In the real world the gain is very close to half that. I think Simos has the answer. Can anyone explain why?

 

[sgnips]

I wish that I could figure this out. In theory packing can't have a negative affect on anything below 5-10 meters, even less in my case where max pack only adds 20%. It shouldn't care because the depth that I can get air for clearing should increase 20% or if I'm limited by lung volume/squeeze, it is the same proportion, 6/5. In the real world the gain is very close to half that. I think Simos has the answer. Can anyone explain why?

you mean Simos is right when saying packing makes eq easier?
what i surely know is that when you dive, you will get to a depth where your lung reach RV and that is the critical depth, where extracting air to eq gets harder and that's where many people have a hard time

this depth is about 30-33m for a 5 lt lung guy (let's say RV is about 1.5lt)

when you pack, you increase your lung volume on the surface and move your RV depth deeper in proportion

it's not making eq easier, but making easy eq possibile for longer descents

anyway, a 5lt guy can get much deeper than 30 even without packing and my opinon for a sane freediving growth is you should get there first no pack, then get beyond it adding new things such as mouthfill or packing or whatever
this is at least what i've been doing in the last 2 years and it really works

 

[Siku]

I'd guess that lung volume was limited mostly by the flexibility of the soft tissue in the chest, rather than the lungs themselves, in which case wouldn't it be more productive (and less traumatic) to practice yoga to increase lung volume? There ccan be residual tension in the shoulders and upper back that takes months or years to work through.

 

[Simos]

Hi Gabriele - what you are describing is what I was basing my comment on in terms of equalisation being easier with packing i.e. at a given depth (say 15m) with more air in your lungs (from packing) it will be easier to take the air out and equalise with rather than without packing.

of course at 15m it will be possible to equalise with and without packing as you haven't reached RV but still with packing it should take less effort (easier) and for those of us who haven't mastered equalisation completely I believe it might make the difference between managing to equalise and not.

I agree too that it's better to work on learning to unpack effectively rather than trying to pack more air in your lungs - unpacking will take you a lot deeper... (i.e. you will be able to unpack air in your mouth a lot deeper before needing a mouthfill, I've heard people that mastered unpacking saying that they manage to unpack air almost down to 70m!)

 

[sgnips]

still with packing it should take less effort (easier)

just reasoning by myself: i don' agree
i mean, you're not equalizing valsalva as at 15m would almost be impossible so the bigger pressure in your lungs (compared to a no-pack dive, same conditions) would not help eq, which is only given by your tongue movemente doing frenzel

(i.e. you will be able to unpack air in your mouth a lot deeper before needing a mouthfill, I've heard people that mastered unpacking saying that they manage to unpack air almost down to 70m!)

that seems to be the "new trend" in equalizing and i do not know much about this technique even if i can imagine that
anyway looks like a might-be-dangerous one
i'm now diving up to 50 and plan to increase this year, i guess no pack and no mouthfill up to 60, then mouthfill for eventual deeper dives
involving this new technique means you're planning something like 90+ or 100+ dives, maybe more... this is not for me by now (uhm... my wife will never let me dive that far...) but may be your case, who knows?

 

[Simos]

Haha my wife won't let me dive past 20m

I don't dive deep and generally equalise hands free, so taking more air in means that I can diver deeper equalising hands free... Also a lot of people use valsava well past 15m so more air will help. I think it should also help if you are using frenzel but I agree that it will only help for the 'first' part of equalisation ie pushing air from your lungs to your mouth...
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[sgnips]

Also a lot of people use valsava well past 15m so more air will help.
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a lot of people THINK they're using Valsalva past 15m
try Valsalva on land keeping your mouth open and tongue tip a bit outside your lips, so you're sure you're not cheating: it's a terrible manouvre, i always get headache doing it, with very little eq results
also, i can't manage doing it in the water and it becomes impossible for me soon after 3 or 4m
many people think they're using Valsalva but they're actually cheating on that moving their tongue in a Frenzel
try and let me know

 

[Simos]

I don't want to try valsava Gabriele it really doesn't work for me either (actually it just works for my left ear but not the right! At least when I am inverted). And I agree with you that a lot of people think they are using valsava but when you are actually talking about it you realise they do actually frenzel.
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[Buzz Numinous]

Regards increasing your lung size after your growth faze this can no longer be done. the only thing that can be increased is the efficiency just to clear that up I.e flexibility in ribs and strength of the intercostal muscles there the ones in between your ribs. Also the art of freediving is young and there is still much to learn remember that just becuse some one has done it for years does not mean they have the best and the only tech if we all step up to the plat in that mind set we would not progress. So yes there are does and donts but also there is no this is the only way. If you need to pack then pack if you don't don't. Relax and enjoy the ride and discover your self inside who you really are on the way down have fun dive safe

Koga