Personal stereos in competition?

[samdive]

I've got the waterproof case but not the earphones. To use my Ipod underwater I put it by the side of the pool with the ITrip transmitter on it and listened through a waterproof radio that cost about £10. It works on the surface for static but not if you try and go underwater. Problem is the waterproof ear phones have horrible jamming-in-the-ear things that make them really uncomfortable so I couldn't relax into the static....

the waterproof case (lillipod) is more to protect the Ipod when its kicking around on boats and stuff. Not sure how you would take it UW. It floats like hell for a start... its basically a pelican box the right size for an Ipod with a plug in for earphones.

S

 

[portinfer]

Sorry .. radios and water immediately make me think of fear and loathing in las vegas and white rabbit and water melons Must get an mp3 player....

 

[Haydn]

Of course listening to music during a static comp is cheating.

 

[donmoore]

In my post above on November 2, 2002 I predicted my earphones would fail because of water intrusion. About a week later, they did.

All of the personal waterproof earphones I have seen have the same problem. The silicone cover with ribs does not seal well enough. All the ones I have seen have a hole in them to let the sound out. The earphone was never made to fit all the way in the ear canal and it won’t so you are left with trying to jam the wedge shape boot as far in the ear as possible. Because of the slope (how quickly the silicone cover gets larger from the small end to the earphone end) it does not want to stay in the ear canal.

Samdive went around the problem by using a waterproof speaker from a waterproof radio. The Finis SwiMP3 with bone conduction technology is the only underwater personal music system that makes sense to me. I read the only draw back to them is they sometimes don’t get loud enough to drown out all the noise in a swimming pool. It really makes you realize how noisy swimming pools are above and below the water, when you start trying to listen to music.

I’m just waiting for the bone conduction cost to come down now.

Haydn,
Why do you think it is cheating? Personally I think we would all be better off if we listened to relaxing music every day. From a rules point of view, I don’t see it any different than nose clips, neck weights, etc.. But we all have our own opinions.
don

 

[Haydn]

Its cheating because certain rhythmns can reduce the heart rate as the heart tries to match its pace with that of the music (soothing music has a similar but far weaker effect) but try listening to 'music' designed specifically to reduce the heart rate rather than simply soothing music designed to sell records. This reduction therefore relies upon this artificial stimuli. Also swap music for taped vocal coaching and you find another grey area. Of course the rules allow us to choose our equipment and therefore music is not expressly forbidden. Probably because most of us would use it only during our preliminary warm ups, and not during a comp. We probably need to find a couple records broken whilst using music before a ruling is made. But we can look at the science right now...........anybody want to start the science? Then we can look at the lack of purity if we use it.

 

[donmoore]

Haydn,
If your talking about Alpha, Theta, and Delta waves, I have done some studying and personal experiments from CD’s and free demo downloads while doing dry statics with a pulse/oximeter and recording both the pulse and SaO2 readings at set times.

From my experience, what works the best for me consistently is non-wave relaxing music with instrumentation of mostly natural instruments and a little electronic music too. Sometimes music with Delta waves gives me good results, but I have to be pretty relaxed first for it to work, but even when it does work it has not been better than the non-wave relaxing music. My standard is Yoga by Lifescapes.

Music gives me something to focus on. A lot different yoga and other relaxing/meditation techniques to slow hr say to try and eliminate most thoughts and instead focus on sensations.

To get an advantage I have tried several types of music, many recorded specifically for meditation, sleep, and lower hr, but to be honest I haven’t found anything that really works like you said. I have read the claims, but like I said it hasn’t worked for me, nor have I ever seen where sellers of the music quoted a study that proved it worked.

I think the advantage music gives is just something to focus on to help take you out of the uncomfortable, stressful place of apnea to a more peaceful place, by giving your mind something peaceful to focus on.
don

PS I also feel like music while doing apnea practice helps me when I’m in a place where I can’t use it. I can play the music in my head or just go along with the trained response of relaxing as the apnea is happing.

 

[donmoore]

Your comment on vocal coaching is interesting. I have some experience, both with static spotting/coaching and with listening to a guided meditation by Kelly Howell. What I have experienced is the guided vocal spotting/coaching can be very performance improving for someone with little relaxation/meditation experience. Times can increase dramatically, but for someone with experience, they don’t like it. It messes with their own method of reaching a low stress, slow state.

The Kelly Howell one I have used when doing dry statics is good. At first I created a problem when she kept talking about focusing on the breath (I wasn’t breathing, I was doing apnea!), but eventually I got used to it and ignored those commands while following the other ones.

The problem with vocal guidance though that I have heard has been studied and verified is when the mind processes vocal commands, it uses energy and increases hr. To process vocal words, the mind goes through the same process as if you were to speak the words, but processes signals to cancel the signals that would have resulted in muscle movement. Signals that result in a tensioning of the muscles can observed by equipment.

This is similar to why a person who has a dream in which they are being active (such as running) wakes up with their muscles tense. I saw a PBS special once where they removed the part of the brain in a dog that was responsible for sending the signal to cancel the movement signals. It resulted in the dog moving its legs like it was running while it was a sleep.

So in my opinion vocal guidance can be good and bad. On a stressful day, the vocal guiding I listen to by Kelly Howell is really good. What ever is lost by the mind processing the words, is made up by help in leaving the stressful mind set. A vocal guiding that was designed specifically for apnea (that left out the cleansing breath stuff) would be even better. You could even vocal the times so if you started at the beginning in a static, you would not have to remember counts or rely on being able to hear your coach who you hopefully remembered to tell just what you wanted and remembered to do it like you wanted. But if not stressed, I have so far had my best performances with no vocal music.
don

 

[samdive]

I don't really think you can say it's cheating when it is not currently against any of the rules, in fact Mandy-Rae set one of her static world records using a waterproof radio and AIDA approved that.

I used to do all my dry static with my Ipod on and was convinced it helped - however for the last few weeks I have been doing it without - and guess what - my holds are a lot longer.... interesting.... I think it's very hard to "turn off" as you have to to get a really good static if you are listening to any ambient noise, especially music you know and connect to, pool noise and general vague chat in the background actually seems easier to work with.

I also got to the point where I knew exactly how long the songs on the Ipod were - so I was chickening out too early as I knew what time I had done - static recently seems a lot easier when you have no idea what planet you are on, let alone how long you have been down there!!! the new "spaced out sam" technique seems to work......

 

[Haydn]

Very good arguments. Like Sam, I find that if you know the music, it is more difficult to ignore the amount of song still to play. However, there are any number of tapes available which invoke peace: waves, bird song, whale song, rain etc Just noises really. So many people agree music can help settle you down and that is exactly why it should be banned in competition. And Yes, cheating is too strong a word when music is not presently against the rules. I do believe though, that static is the only one and pure form of our sport that can easily be allowed to evolve without assistance from other kit. No mono, no carbon c4, no flash fluid goggles, no new fangled breathing balloon, no assistance whatever. Because we know so many things will artificially enhance static performance and we accept them, (wetsuit, nose clip, goggles), this is no excuse for allowing additional performance enhancing equipment just because the rules fail to mention them. Static apnea is just you and your relationship with the water, lets keep it that way.

 

[donmoore]

I do believe though, that static is the only one and pure form of our sport that can easily be allowed to evolve without assistance from other kit. No mono, no carbon c4, no flash fluid goggles, no new fangled breathing balloon, no assistance whatever. Because we know so many things will artificially enhance static performance and we accept them, (wetsuit, nose clip, goggles), this is no excuse for allowing additional performance enhancing equipment just because the rules fail to mention them. Static apnea is just you and your relationship with the water, lets keep it that way.

Nice thoughts. I was getting all wrapped up in your words :inlove , but then I thought, gee I wish I could go do static at my public pool with just me and the water! But unfortunately the reality it isn’t just you and the water, you have to have a spotter. You have to get one or train one so they know what they are doing. Then you have to tell them the way you want it done and then communicate with them all the time as you evolve and try new things. All that consumes energy and concentration.

Both the blessing and the curse of freediving is you have to do it with others to be safe. :crutch

I do see your point though. It is what got a lot of us into freediving in the first place. The simplicity and purity of it.
don

 

[Haydn]

Of course, "its just you and the water" is a figure of speech. The reality is, its just you and the water, and the buddy, and the wetsuit, and the goggles, and the nose clip, and the stopwatch, and the heart rate reducing music, and the vocal coach. All of which are artificial aids that enhance performance. WHY are we allowing it to evolve in this way?

 

[donmoore]

I agree. I think the thing that starts it all is the spotter. We have to have one, and if he is there, then it leads to why can’t he talk to you with times, coaching, etc., etc.. And if that is happening than why not music, nose clips, and anything else. Until we think of a way to do statics without a spotter, which maybe impossible, then there is no end to allowable aids. :hmm

The only thing close to do statics without a spotter I have thought of was a way to simulate facial submersion of wet statics without a pool. Take a container and put a hole in the bottom side. Then cover the hole with your hand and fill it full of water. Put your face in and do your static. If you pass out then your hand will come off the hole and drain the water emerging your mouth and nose.

Hold it, I just thought of an in pool solution. Use an inflatable life vest that uses a CO2 cartridge. Redo the pull cord to where a bungee or spring will pull it unless you are holding it with your hand. The inflatable life vests are designed to turn you over face out of the water.

All of this of course is half joking. The problem is you may keep holding the hole in the container or the pull cord after you passout for a while. The brain sometimes still seems to keep the hold the tense muscle command after it shut the lights off. Spearos sometimes tighten their grib on the speargun and if the finger is on the trigger, shoot it when they have pass out. Once I passed out after getting my hands on the edge of the pool. My spotter, and my wife who was there, said I was gripping the pool edge hard when they were trying to raise my head!

Then there is the reliability of nothing going wrong with the inflatable vest. Many of them have been recalled over the years for problems. And even though they are designed to turn you over, will it actually do it every time and do you want to trust it? :ban
don

 

[Haydn]

Yes we see, so who wants more equipment. As for the spotter, I remember one of my very first statics. Aaharon Solomons was my spotter. I was disturbed when he gave me the tap to signal me to surface just because my time was up, I was in a really peaceful trance at the time, enjoying the moment and didnt want to be disturbed, it was such a new experience and got me hooked. But that was his job, simply to look after my safety. No need for coaching, that had already been done in the classroom. A spotter is vital, but he doesnt need to talk to you with times, coaching, etc., etc.. Sometimes spotters also spoil the mood. Remember its just you and your relationship with the water, a spotter must not get in the way, its not a threesome until the last moment.

 

[naiad]

The brain sometimes still seems to keep the hold the tense muscle command after it shut the lights off.

And the 'give a signal to your buddy' command...

Once I passed out after getting my hands on the edge of the pool. My spotter, and my wife who was there, said I was gripping the pool edge hard when they were trying to raise my head!

I always grip very hard when there is a 'problem'.

Then there is the reliability of nothing going wrong with the inflatable vest. Many of them have been recalled over the years for problems. And even though they are designed to turn you over, will it actually do it every time and do you want to trust it?

I agree that there should always be a spotter and we should never rely on equipment to get us out of trouble. One of the things I like about freediving is that we don't rely on equipment.

Lucia