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Please, help me with Frenzel

Thread Status: Hello , There was no answer in this thread for more than 60 days.
It can take a long time to get an up-to-date response or contact with relevant users.

Joao Pedro

Member
Feb 19, 2015
55
5
23
31
Hello all,
Been trying Frenzel for last 3 hours, read the entire document following step by step. Saw Solomon video, read a lot of topics and messages. If anyone knows a 100 pages document, please show me, because now I'm in war with this Frenzel. They say it was taught to pilots in ww II, how people learned this complicated stuff while knowing that there was 90% chance they end up dead. I know it takes some time but I'm a little frustrated, I put a lot of time in this session and, nothing. Appreciate any idea, thanks. Have a great week.
 
Relax, think of it more as experimenting with the various tricks that you can do with your mouth and thereabouts.
Try the "air pumping" from here: http://www.freediving.biz/features/mouthfill.html
It makes you seal off the lungs and play with the upper part of the respiratory tract. Try the other exercises there, just play with it.

Good luck!
 
Hi Joao.

You've got a nice energy to your posts (I just saw the other one also) an that's a good thing in general. However: In this sport or activity pushing too hard is mostly a surprisingly unproductive way to progress. It can backfire easely; The more you push, the harder the setbacks. Being "in war" with something as delicate as equalizing trouble is a lost cause. Spending time and patience is better.

But first, let me ask you something unrelated to your question: I somehow just got a feeling (from your fast paced posts and lack of patience) you might be diving alone... Are you? You need a knowledgable body to look after you at all times if training in water.

Anyway, about your question: For someone who read a long document about it, and watched a video, your post is surprisingly lacking in information and precision about your problem. Again, slow down. I'm not even sure if it's the Frentzel (simple) or it's actually the mouthfill (Fattah-Frentzel?) you are talking about.

Some people have trained for years with their basic equalization... Most learn it quicker depending on inate talent, but just saying. It can take time.

You need to take your time. Start with taking the time of writing a more specific and systematic question based on your present knowledge and trouble.... :)
 
As Baiyoke says: don't push yourself and take your time. I'm writing a text on freediving (VERY basic!), and I really emphasize this: in order to get any results or goals you should let go of them. Or at least not be too focused on them. This sounds counter productive, but in freediving, the process is (in some way) more important than the end result. That's not to say you can not have any objectives. I'm just saying freediving is a process of tiny steps. If you don't follow this path, you'll end up frustrated as Baiyoke rightfully implies.

Of course, it won't help you if I tell you I have never done anything else in my life than Frenzel, without even learning it. In fact, I have a problem with Valsalva, which is considered less "enigmatic" to learn, so there you go.

I suppose you already know the following "method" to train/learn Frenzel, but here goes my two cents:

Close your mouth and pinch your nose. Try to make a "k" sound or "(i)ng" sound.
Learn to close the epiglottis while doing this. To "experience" the closing of the epiglottis, you can try breathing out with your mouth open and try to interrupt the breathing with your epiglottis. Also, I find it easier to concentrate on the epiglottis by imagining I'm going to lift some heavy weight. For some reason, my epiglottis closes when I'm thinking of that.

Otherwise, seek one on one help from an instructor? DO take it easy. If not, you'll abandon freediving even before you started. And that would be a shame.

This being said, I've never ever gone deeper than around 7-10 meters, even with scuba, can you believe that? So, I wonder how my Frenzel will work when I'm doing my AIDA 2* next month... :)

Good luck to you, Joao! Do keep going. Tiny steps. Freediving is too much fun to quit!
 
Joao,

I will heartily endorse everything written above...and I would also like to suggest that you should consider investing a little time and money into taking a basic Freediving Course with a highly experienced instructor. I am going to post a link to my good friend, former Captain of the US National Team, and all-around equalization guru Ted Harty's unique Skype Equalization Class...from the many, many people I have talked to, this is the real deal and works!
http://immersionfreediving.com/classes-2/skype-equalizing-session/

Good luck, dive safe, and have fun!
 
Hi guys,

Thanks so much for the attention, much appreciate the insights. I realize I tried to hard that day, I was trying to know this before the recess we have here in the next few days, studies and work are killing me, I need to dive! I have a lot of respect and admiration to this activity and I really been trying to push myself to make some progress and enjoy like you guys do. I do realize it is or can be dangerous. I'm diving/spearing with my brother, we're both beginners in general, but my brother might be more prepared than I am because he's part of a special troop in the army here. I've reading the safety procedures and trying to imagine how I could act in a situation of danger.

About the Frenzel. Yesterday I read a lot of topics regarding this, and that I may be doing Frenzel instead of Valsalva, I though it was very unlikely but anyway, I checked some steps. If my stomach area was still while I equalize and if my throat was moving. The answer was yes to both, and acording to the post I was actually doing Frenzel. But, I'm still skeptic about this because my tongue doesn't move at all, and peharps I was moving a little bit my stomach and didn't notice.

Still, in the process of trying to learn, I got stuck in the pdf file part where you try to move the soft palate and the epiglottis independently. I wasn't able to make the air from my mouth go to my nose with the epiglottis closed, air get stucked in my mouth. I dropped the pdf for a moment and went to youtube. Some videos ignored the process that involve the soft palate. But I still couldn't do with that in mind.

I guess my problem is with the tongue part of blocking and specially the piston part. Anyway, my hope of trying to learn by myself is going down, and I might have to join some course. I may still persist because I'm just a student (22) I don't make any money yet, I bought my equipment with money from gifts from last years. So I guess that adds to the process of trying to learn, failing and getting angry for a moment. But I'll keep trying until it's obviouslly impossible due to lack of information.

I would like to thank all the support you guys give, I guess this is a very bright side of the internet, helping people to learn things they want to learn, really awesome. I'll keep this help in my mind and in case I get better in freediving i'll do the same! Have a great week!
 
Hi Joao,

If in your attempts, you perform something that articulatory phoneticians would call "velar closure", that is, press the back of the tongue against the soft palate as if for producing "k" or "g", then not too much space is left for the piston movement of the tongue, and most of the action will be performed by the glottis (observed in the upwards movement of the "Adam's apple"). But then, the way to your nose would have to be open, so I am a bit lost when you say that you don't open it :)

To be sure: you're perfectly capable of opening that passage -- monitor yourself as you pronounce the nasal sounds, especially "m" and "n" -- they absolutely rely on the way through the mouth to be blocked (either by the lips or by the tongue) and the way through the nose to be open (they also need your vocal cords to vibrate, but let's ignore that).

When you pronounce the word "button", the only change in the upper part of the vocal tract as you go from "t" to "n" is exactly the opening of the passage to the nose (by lowering the part of the soft palate that was pressing against the back wall of the pharynx). Monitor yourself as you're pronouncing this. Similarly with the phrase "back 'n forth" (except then your tongue is in a different position, but still, part of the process of pronouncing the "..ck 'n.." sequence is exactly the opening of the passage to the nose, without doing anything else up there.

Just play with it and monitor yourself. :)
 
Hi, Joao,

There are some real indicators you can check if you are doing Frenzel:

- ...you can equalize with empty lungs (valsalva doesn't work on empty lungs!)
- ...you feel NO pressure in your stomach when equalizing. (With valsalva, you clearly feel the pressure there)
- ...your Adam's apple moves up and down during equalization. (Use a mirror to check).
- ...you can equalize many times in just a few seconds, let's say 4-5 times in 2 seconds.

If you can confirm all these paramaters taken together as a whole, there's a rather good chance you are doing Frenzel. :)

Hope this adds to the excellent advice you already got here from our fellow (and more experienced) freedivers! It is a nice community, isn't it?

Keep at it, go slow, take small steps and yes, a real freediving course with an instructor might work miracles indeed! I hope I won't have any problems equalizing myself when I'm starting my AIDA 2* next week! (Yes, I'm a beginner too.)

Good luck!
 
Last edited:
Piotrek, thank you, I understand what you mean. I guess the problem too is that my epiglottis is plugged with the soft palate, because when I close my epiglottis, I can see that the passage from my mouth to the throat is almost fully closed. I guess I'll have to uncouple as they say.

Jo_duiker, when I fully exhale I end up taking a bit of to my mouth and I'm able to equalize, my throat moves clearly, no pressure in stomach. I think there's a chance I'm already doing then. This is so wierd! If that is really true, than I hope this topic can be any use for future references. For now, I'll be doing the same thing whatever the name it is! If it fails at 30m I'll let you guys know!

Yes, great community, noticeable different than most! I guess the relaxation you apply in diving might teach some thing or two to your personality. For now, I'm going to close this equalization subject on my mind and focus more on breath hold and tolerance. Thank you so much for all the information! Have a great week!
 
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