pool training advice sought

[HJ]

Half the length under the water and half on top. More accurately they're over/unders, as I swim on the surface to half way, duck dive then swim the rest under the water. The fins I use are underwater hockey fins, lots more thrust than swimfins but not nearly as efficient as a mono. The mono would also make freestyle pretty much impossible on the surface leg.

Hmmm... interesting. So you swim freestyle with flutter kick on surface and then do flutter kick under?

... Another goodie is FLABs. In a 25m pool, do a length of Freestyle, then Legs only followed by Arms only and finally Bottoms, ie. undewater length. Each rep is then 100m any you leave every 90s for the next rep. The aim is to get 10 done on the trot. I don't really suggest it until you're a little more used to things, but you can do one or two to see what its like.

Again interesting. I can already tell it's going to be tough, especially leaving on the 90 secs. I'll try a couple and see. This could replace the swimming portion of my workout for a while.

thanks!

 

[laminar]

Excellent thread...

"Hypoxic" 25m swims don't sounds at all hypoxic to me... they sound like a fun time with elevated C02. :duh I know 'cause I've tried them and variations on that theme. Actually, after all that freediving training many years ago, I chronically breathed too little and would get massive headaches after 4000m-5000m workout swims. That would perhaps lead one to believe I was achieving greater hypercapnia tolerance, but I don't think so...

Increasing lung capacity is not always good...never mind theories about packing/stretching being detrimental...there's always the extra buoyancy to overcome on a constant weight dive.

Dave, how much weight do you wear to get down to 100m? Or do you swim a long way down...

Dave's post is right on... many of the world's top freedivers have less than ideal technique...there are many other mechanisms at work.

Main thing - don't overtrain!

Pete

 

[Mullins]

Yeah my lung volume costs me a lot in CW. I needed 3kg with a 2mm top and lycra bottoms in Sharm. 5kg when wearing a 3mm suit. I don't know anybody else who needs that much weight for deep dives

Nevertheless, I still pack to the max as the benefits do seem to outweigh the cost - and because it aids equalising. Discomfort is increased because I generate more CO2, this may be why I get so narked.

 

[laminar]

Your experience is similar to Hubert Maier, who complained to me that he had to wear so much weight to get down. And then of course kicking up from 70m with plastic Gara 2000s is no picnic. :duh

 

[HJ]

Thanks for tips so far all, and thanks Dave for Diver Reflex leads.

Just came back from pool workout (25m). Tried various things suggested and continued others. Hey Chrismar, the FLABs are interesting. I tried 3. Had to come up on the last one just short of the wall, so stopped. Also did some Over/Unders, but didn't like much; 25m seems too short for this. Continued with U/W fin repeats, dropping the take-off time down one notch. Ended with a SPOTTED U/W trial to 50m. It's the easiest one I've done yet. Also noticing my average U/W fin times dropping with workouts and increased technique work.

QUESTION: a friend asked why I'm doing dolphin kick (bi-fins) in pool, why not flutter? Since my target trip is "recreational freediving" and I'm not doing much mono, any particular reason to favor dolphin over flutter? I seem to get the same distance/speed out of both. In fact, on that spotted 50m trial, I did dolphin down and flutter back. Thanks for response.

 

[azapa]

Harald. Again, disclaimer, I am a relative beginner, but do find that dolphin with bi fins is nicer in the pool than flutter. This is NOT so in the ocean (spearfishing) though. The flutter gives a stronger acceleration when trying to break floatability on the surface. I have, to a very lesser extent, Mullins "problem" of high lung VC (7lts, I weigh 63Kg). In order not to wear too much lead, the water entries need lots of power. The dolphin (with bi) is sometimes nice on the way up with floatability in your favor. I guess: dolphin nicer with non demanding work. Flutter for power or maneuverability (again, in the ocean context, it would be very hard to spear with a mono, although i'm sure many do it).

 

[HJ]

Thanks for this feedback, Azapa. I will do some more practicing with both.

One more question: What is the most efficient way to "break floatability"? Do you bend at the waist and bring both legs up in the air? Only one leg? Any other ways to do it?

 

[TRITON]

Dave when you're doing CW ,do you get contactions on the way down or after the turn?I remember you said that in DYN you get contactions at about 50-60m.I ask you this because I often start feelling them on the way down(at about 50m) and sometimes it's very uncomfortable.

 

[azapa]

Thanks for this feedback, Azapa. I will do some more practicing with both.

One more question: What is the most efficient way to "break floatability"? Do you bend at the waist and bring both legs up in the air? Only one leg? Any other ways to do it?

what I was taught is not really what I am good at practicing, but here goes:
- bend body down at waist (like, stick your head down, body should bend at waist 90 degrees)
- have arms straight down also
- flip one leg up straight, the weight of that leg should help to sink you
- At the same time, kick with the now submerged leg
- pull (breast stroke style) with one extended arm, tuck that elbow in to chest and place hand on nose ready for first EQ. keep other arm extended straight, in over head to streamline one shoulder
- look straight out into the blue, NOT DOWN at the bottom

the arm pull, for me, is really really important.

as Martin Stepaneck mentioned on a recent course I did "the best way to mess up your dive is on the water entry" and no joke, it's hard to pull a good dive together without a clean and efficient entry.

You could always look into FRC dives if you wanted to make the entries easier, it is a whole different school of though, for experts I would say, but interesting to read about at least.

Will you be wearing a wetsuit on your dive trip?

 

[HJ]

Excellent feedback, azapa. I will try out on next pool outing and report back.

< Will you be wearing a wetsuit on your dive trip? >

Plans are no at the moment. If anything, it will be for torso and very thin (1mm). I do have rash guards and fleece-type things so not sure if also going to neoprene. Any thoughts if so?

Thank you!

 

[azapa]

aha, a whole new math that I have no idea about. no suit should mean no lead, or very little. I tried no suit/no lead/ no fins on holidays recently for the first time and could not dive. After several days I shifted to partial inhale dives, (I would say between FRC and full inhale), it was the only way I could get anywhere (big lungs). Your math will probably be different but someone with more experience should chime in.

 

[HJ]

aha, a whole new math that I have no idea about. no suit should mean no lead, or very little. I tried no suit/no lead/ no fins on holidays recently for the first time and could not dive. After several days I shifted to partial inhale dives, (I would say between FRC and full inhale), it was the only way I could get anywhere (big lungs). Your math will probably be different but someone with more experience should chime in.

thanks. They say lung capacity goes down with age, so I should have no problem! I'm also taking a weight belt (belt only) and the boat has weights.
Any other opinions welcome.

 

[HJ]

Azapa: Tried your entry procedure in pool. No problems. Tried left and right to see. I don't really need the armstroke, but will try to incorporate so it's automatic. So thanks very much for that!

 

[azapa]

good to hear! it more depends which hand you comfortably equalize with, that is the one you should be sweeping back. How is your EQ? have you practiced? it is often the depth limiter for the first few months.

 

[Mullins]

Dave when you're doing CW ,do you get contactions on the way down or after the turn?I remember you said that in DYN you get contactions at about 50-60m.I ask you this because I often start feelling them on the way down(at about 50m) and sometimes it's very uncomfortable.

I normally only get contractions on the way up. However most people go through an uncomfortable stage as they pass residual volume, at around 40-50m. Once you're through that bit you can normally relax again

 

[HJ]

good to hear! it more depends which hand you comfortably equalize with, that is the one you should be sweeping back. How is your EQ? have you practiced? it is often the depth limiter for the first few months.

Yeah... EQ could be an issue. 10 feet is the max depth of the pools I visit. I practice often going down to the very bottom, and EQing is OK via nose blow. No other pools here have more depth. Except one... you've made me think about this. I may need to pull some strings to get in there if their schedule allows. Any additional thoughts appreciated.

 

[fcallagy]

afaik you can simulate eq at a deeper depth by eq with empty lungs and dropping to the bottom of the pool, but but but need to be very careful with it as it can cause injuries and you may also be surprised how much effort is required to bring you back up when you have no buoyancy from your lungs. You can also damage your lungs so proceed very carefully and of course always with a buddy.

 

[azapa]

As Fergus said, this is a very good practice, but also very dangerous, I am hesitant to recommend you try.

YOU MUST BE WATCHED 100% BY A TRAINED BUDDY to try, it is so easy to mess up. A 5M pool (15ft) can emulate 100M depth eq if your lungs are really empty and reverse packed. You will need a mask. Start at FRC (resting, neither inhale nor exhale) lungs, dive and, head down, one hand on the bottom like a handstand, try to Equalize. your ears should crackle. If you can't get them to, burp up (reverse pack, a noise from the back of your throat) air into your mouth to do it with (this is called a "mouthfill") if it still does not work, dive again with a little more inhale. If it's too easy, try with a little extra exhale. Don't over exhale at this phase. The pressure at this meager depth, on empty lungs, can still cause damage, lungs and trachea mainly. You may feel a dull pain in the diaphragm, a scratchy feeling in the back of your throat. Anything weird and stop. please be careful.
PS. when doing the above, don't strain neck looking at bottom, your head should be nuetral looking out into the pool. your outstretched hand will tell you when you reach the bottom. Looking for the bottom will stretch your neck, making eq harder and trachea damage more possible.

 

[HJ]

As Fergus said, this is a very good practice, but also very dangerous, I am hesitant to recommend you try. YOU MUST BE WATCHED 100% BY A TRAINED BUDDY to try, it is so easy to mess up. [...]

thanks guys, but ya know... I'm going to stay away from this. Don't want to chance it. I've got a line of a 15'-deep pool. Not exactly where I am, but close enough for a short trip.

FYI, my pool training is coming along. I'm doing 25m U/Ws on the 1:00 now. And since my per-length average on repeats is down to 20 secs (from about 25), this puts me at exactly 2:1 rest/work, and it feels good. So I'm definitely seeing improvements from the workouts. Also practicing entries and EQ regularly. Onward!

 

[HJ]

Quick update on pool training as the guy who started the thread... Have added my Omer mask and snorkel to the 25m repeats. Also trying various options with my snorkel in mouth, holding out front, sticking in my Speedos (as if weight belt). Have modified the snorkel with a neoprene wrap (see separate "vibrating snorkel +" thread). Spending more time breathing through the snorkel all the time, even between 25s. Still doing send-offs at 1:00, but they're getting pretty easy so may drop down a notch. Doing 12-15 25s at a stretch. Am gradually trying to slow down my speed and be more energy efficient. Did a spotted 50m + turn today. Always practicing descents, too. All feeling good and getting more and more comfortable.

You guys helped a lot! Appreciate it.

HJ