Tuesday, August 11, 2020
  • Welcome to the DeeperBlue.com Forums, the largest online community dedicated to Freediving, Scuba Diving and Spearfishing. To gain full access to the DeeperBlue.com Forums you must register for a free account. As a registered member you will be able to:

    • Join over 43,000+ fellow diving enthusiasts from around the world on this forum
    • Participate in and browse from over 510,000+ posts.
    • Communicate privately with other divers from around the world.
    • Post your own photos or view from 7,450+ user submitted images.
    • All this and much more...

    You can gain access to all this absolutely free when you register for an account, so sign up today!

Pool Training Schedule

Do you think consistent pool training greatly improves depth performances?

  • Yes

    Votes: 9 81.8%
  • No

    Votes: 2 18.2%

  • Total voters
    11

Andrew702

Member
Apr 7, 2016
45
18
23
Boston, Massachusetts
I'm trying to start incorporating pool training into my depth training. As I have never done much pool and I have no idea the way people structure their sessions. Currently my PB is 80 meters dynamic bi fins and static PB 4:20. I have also been doing dry co2 tables.

What are some examples of typical a pool training session?

How would you increase the difficulty over time?

How many pool sessions would be optimal with 2-3 depth sessions per week doing deep dives in 50's? How much training do you think is too much?

Do you think pool training greatly improve depth performances? If so, how?

I realize there will be a wide variety of training styles. I'm just looking to see what everyone does and how often they train.
 

Nathan Vinski

Well-Known Member
Apr 19, 2015
247
145
58
24
Canada
In order..


This was a pool session that I organized for a group (beginner to intermediate) for a 1h session:

-Warm up: 2x25m slow pace
-Conditioning: 5x50m w/1:00 recovery (alternate w/buddy - 1 dives the other recovers)
-Cool down: 3xsuper-slow-mo 25m w/3:00 recovery: crawl along the bottom for target dive time of 1:30-2:00.
-Conditioning#2: 3xStatic+50m. static times increase each dive and are either (15,30,45) or (45,1:00,1:15) w/3:00 recovery. Buddy signals static end and watches last 10m ** Static+Dynamic is in my opinion the best pool training for depth as it simulates what happens in depth as closely as possible.. you can use more complicated versions like 25m+30sec static+ 50m to simulate normal dive profiles in the 50m range.


Using that session as an example to increase difficulty you could decrease recoveries (5*50 w/30 second recovery). increase dive times (2:00+50m or 1:00+75m)

If you are doing 2-3 depth sessions per week with 50m dives you should be doing ZERO pool trainings. If you want to add 1 pool sessions to what you are already doing you will have to remove 1 depth session.. 2-3 times per week of any apnea training (depth, pool, dry) is the maximum that is sustainable over time.. If you are training for a peak period of performance you can do 1-2 (maybe 3 if you the training intensity is low enough, which defeats the purpose of a peak period) weeks with up to 5 sessions but then you will fall into over training and performance will greatly decrease until you have enough rest.. (3-6 weeks off, from experience).

Does pool training improve depth performance? Yes, No, maybe, it could, all of the above.. Training is training and anything you do on a breath hold will teach you something that can be translated into increased depth performance. what you are struggling with in depth will define how much the pool will help you.
-If your stuck at depth X because of equalization, don't even get in the pool.
-if you are struggling with hypoxia, then yes the pool will help but there are certain drills that can be done in a depth session that will probably be more beneficial for deep diving
-if you are struggling with squeeze, again the pool wont help you very much
-If your fining technique is absolutely horrible the pool is probably the best place to fix that. if your fining is OK then training in depth will help you improve your fining for depth.
 

Kodama

Well-Known Member
Jun 20, 2016
393
176
58
Belgium - California
www.eastwind.be
In our freediving club we are using phasic training where we divide 9 months of the year into four phases. For example from sept to nov we focus on overall conditioning and try to identify personal weaknesses. dec to feb we do specific training which can include technique training or frc training or ..., the intensity varies between med low and med high. Then form march to april the training becomes highly specialized focussing on the disciplines you choose to advance in. Finally we work towards a peak performance period.

It is a very classic training method used in many other sports and has several benefits. One of the main advantages is that you challenge the body for a specific time in a specific way, granted you allow yourself the necessary time to recover,(Good recovery is always the most important part of your training!) you will become stronger/better in the aspect of freediving you are training.
Because you only focus on a certain aspect for a limited amount of time there CAN be less danger of overtraining.

There is much more to say about this, but it may give you something to start with.

Nathan:
How do you plan your training over a season?
I imagine the training you mention above is one you gradually increase in intensity over the course of several weeks?
 

Nathan Vinski

Well-Known Member
Apr 19, 2015
247
145
58
24
Canada
Nathan:
How do you plan your training over a season?
I imagine the training you mention above is one you gradually increase in intensity over the course of several weeks?
So the above mentioned session was something that organized for a new club I started training with. It was not part of a long term training program and had no intention for being repeated or used in any progression. Of course the things that I mentioned, increased apnea time or decreased recovery could be applied as a certain progression.

How do I plan training over a Season?

I guess my approach to periodization would be quite similar to what you described (4 phases) with the difference that I would work more in the timespan of weeks, rather than months. Personally I believe that unlike other sports, at least in the MID-LEVELS OF PERFORMANCE free diving can be trained extremely quickly. Without going into details I followed a 4 phase period this summer during a 3 week trip to Dahab where I increased my CWT with bi-fins from 44m-64m.

In my opinion beginners shouldn't have any periodization. They should just dive as much as possible and learn to feel their way around the sport. Gain experience and have slow natural improvements.

At the middle levels, where I am, I think that performance can be achieved very quickly if the training is thought out, and efficient. The experience you would have gained as a beginner should translate into allowing your body to easily and quickly adapt to medium depths (60s maybe 70s and 80s) as long as you have good technique and smart training. When you get to doing really big dives thats where longer periodization (over the year) would come into play allowing you to adapt yourself fully to real depths (80/90m+)


**I don't want anyone to take this as reckless and like Im saying that you can achieve 60m with 3 weeks of training though. I spent 3.5 years diving 3 days a week to maximum 35m, without MF, and without a dive computer, and focusing primarily on technique both in depth and in the pool. I did that many many times learning by feel and translated those skills to a 64m dive, without that I would have squeezed and blacked out for sure.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Kodama
OP
OP
Andrew702

Andrew702

Member
Apr 7, 2016
45
18
23
Boston, Massachusetts
Thanks guys some really great feedback. Periodization definitely seems necessary at some point. There's too much I need to train to do it all at once. Right now I'm just going by what I'm weakest at and working on that. When I start getting tired of depth or pool I'll start working out in the gym.

I agree with Nathan that in the beginning strictly regimented training plans are not necessary nor would I advise it. Nothing can ruin a something faster than taking it too seriously, turning it into a job, or competing too soon. Now that I'm approaching the mid levels I am starting to see training more efficiently could help me reach my goals faster. I've been quite lazy and relaxed with my training. Looking back I can see there was a shorter path to where I am now.
 

Nathan Vinski

Well-Known Member
Apr 19, 2015
247
145
58
24
Canada
Thanks guys some really great feedback. Periodization definitely seems necessary at some point. There's too much I need to train to do it all at once. Right now I'm just going by what I'm weakest at and working on that. When I start getting tired of depth or pool I'll start working out in the gym.

I agree with Nathan that in the beginning strictly regimented training plans are not necessary nor would I advise it. Nothing can ruin a something faster than taking it too seriously, turning it into a job, or competing too soon. Now that I'm approaching the mid levels I am starting to see training more efficiently could help me reach my goals faster. I've been quite lazy and relaxed with my training. Looking back I can see there was a shorter path to where I am now.

So speaking of goals and efficient training.. If I know what they are maybe I can help find the efficient Options..

You said you have a 4:20 STA and 80m DYN and dive into the 50m range in depth.. Judging by your questions I'm assuming the goal is to improve depth as a main goal with improving DYN as a secondary goal. How deep and/or far do you want to dive?

whats holding you back most?
-In depth? (eq, lactic acid, relaxation, squeeze, Hypoxia, ETC...)
-In Dynamic? (Determination, Hypoxia, technique, fear, etc...)

I hear a lot in the Freediving community that you shouldn't focus on numbers and that we should forget about results and then we will have the most improvement. For lack of a better word thats malarkey... A numerical goal will really help you focus and set yourself to the training needed to achieve it, as well as help yourself, or your buddies/coaches come up with a plan of action. Now I'm not saying that your goal should be 100m CWT.. you should set a goal that is easy to imagine yourself doing, just slightly out of your current reach so that with just a bit of well planned hard work you can do it.
 
OP
OP
Andrew702

Andrew702

Member
Apr 7, 2016
45
18
23
Boston, Massachusetts
So speaking of goals and efficient training.. If I know what they are maybe I can help find the efficient Options..

You said you have a 4:20 STA and 80m DYN and dive into the 50m range in depth.. Judging by your questions I'm assuming the goal is to improve depth as a main goal with improving DYN as a secondary goal. How deep and/or far do you want to dive?

whats holding you back most?
-In depth? (eq, lactic acid, relaxation, squeeze, Hypoxia, ETC...)
-In Dynamic? (Determination, Hypoxia, technique, fear, etc...)

I hear a lot in the Freediving community that you shouldn't focus on numbers and that we should forget about results and then we will have the most improvement. For lack of a better word thats malarkey... A numerical goal will really help you focus and set yourself to the training needed to achieve it, as well as help yourself, or your buddies/coaches come up with a plan of action. Now I'm not saying that your goal should be 100m CWT.. you should set a goal that is easy to imagine yourself doing, just slightly out of your current reach so that with just a bit of well planned hard work you can do it.
So speaking of goals and efficient training.. If I know what they are maybe I can help find the efficient Options..

You said you have a 4:20 STA and 80m DYN and dive into the 50m range in depth.. Judging by your questions I'm assuming the goal is to improve depth as a main goal with improving DYN as a secondary goal. How deep and/or far do you want to dive?

whats holding you back most?
-In depth? (eq, lactic acid, relaxation, squeeze, Hypoxia, ETC...)
-In Dynamic? (Determination, Hypoxia, technique, fear, etc...)

I hear a lot in the Freediving community that you shouldn't focus on numbers and that we should forget about results and then we will have the most improvement. For lack of a better word thats malarkey... A numerical goal will really help you focus and set yourself to the training needed to achieve it, as well as help yourself, or your buddies/coaches come up with a plan of action. Now I'm not saying that your goal should be 100m CWT.. you should set a goal that is easy to imagine yourself doing, just slightly out of your current reach so that with just a bit of well planned hard work you can do it.

Short term I'd like to do 60m FIM which I'm confident I can do. Slightly longer term 70m and beyond. I'm nowhere near hypoxia right now co2 tolerance is a problems as I'm getting strong contractions on some of my longer dives. So I'm trying to increase my bottom times.

With dynamic well it just sucks. I quit way too early and I just associate every pool session with pain and suffering. My contractions come much earlier in the pool I'd say after 25m. I'm nowhere near my hypoxic threshold but mentally pool is challenging. It's only been 4 sessions so I'm not expecting a whole lot. I'm going to make my sessions easier for now so I don't want to quit before I have even started. Short term goal is I want to do a 100m dynamic bi fins and 5 min static with minimal to no hypervenation.
 

Nathan Vinski

Well-Known Member
Apr 19, 2015
247
145
58
24
Canada
Short term I'd like to do 60m FIM which I'm confident I can do. Slightly longer term 70m and beyond. I'm nowhere near hypoxia right now co2 tolerance is a problems as I'm getting strong contractions on some of my longer dives. So I'm trying to increase my bottom times.

With dynamic well it just sucks. I quit way too early and I just associate every pool session with pain and suffering. My contractions come much earlier in the pool I'd say after 25m. I'm nowhere near my hypoxic threshold but mentally pool is challenging. It's only been 4 sessions so I'm not expecting a whole lot. I'm going to make my sessions easier for now so I don't want to quit before I have even started. Short term goal is I want to do a 100m dynamic bi fins and 5 min static with minimal to no hypervenation.
Interestingly that sounds like a lot of what I used to struggle with, early contractions in depth and associating pain and suffering with anything in the pool (I still only associate pain and suffering with static but I also have zero interest in static and I don't find it directly useful to diving)

Going into those 2 separate categories: depth and pool. there are a few possible routes thank can be taken..

For depth; the first two things can give results quite quickly if you are very self aware. Its mostly about relaxation and relaxation..
  1. Do 10m dives with hangs or exploration and focus on relaxing your breathing muscles + surrounding area. Consciously avoid having contractions (feels like when someone you dont want to talk to sees you and you're pretending not to see them)
  2. Passive or full exhale dry statics will help with learning to relax those muscles
  3. Master frenzel equalization. Proper frenzel should get you to 50+m without reverse packing or any kind of Mouthfill. If you can get pure frenzel working that deep it means your diaphragm is disengaged which will reduce tension contractions as well

Discomfort related issues in the pool its a little more complicated: This is just what works for me..
  1. Co2 training needs to be very brief. Your body adapts to it very quickly but you will also get mentally burnt out very quickly. I do 5 days straight of increasing intensity CO2 training (STA and DYN) and then that the best shape I'll ever get in. Anything more and i get fed up of holding my breath.
  2. perfect your fining (movement) technique: if you can move efficiently you will be less tense and use less energy
  3. Set a goal with a no-more-no-less attitude. If you can do 80m before giving up (from discomfort) get in and decide to do 85 or 90. By putting up a maximum limit it takes away the stress of having to feel amazing when you reach your PB.. just 10 more seconds of discomfort is nothing really.. By putting a minimum limit in your mind you can just accept where you are. its going to feel bad but who cares? only you. and if meeting your goal is more important than not feeling uncomfortable thats up to you.*** DISCLAIMER_this does not work with Hypoxia related limits. if you are blacking out deciding to go 10+m will just make you blackout again.
  4. When it comes to improving (with both discomfort and hypoxia related limits) theres more value in repeating the same distance multiple times than doing a small PB everytime. In your case, once you decide to do 90m no-more-no-less and achieve 90m. then do 90m once per session (1-2 times per week) for 2-3 weeks. Then repeat.. 100m no-more-no-less... Obviously back to the periodization stuff you can't sustain this forever and eventually when the distances get really high you will need longer and more complicated training periods with a similar approach.
 

Jo_duiker

Active Member
Jan 16, 2014
106
21
33
44
Ieper (Ypres), Belgium
In order..


This was a pool session that I organized for a group (beginner to intermediate) for a 1h session:

-Conditioning: 5x50m w/1:00 recovery (alternate w/buddy - 1 dives the other recovers)
-Cool down: 3xsuper-slow-mo 25m w/3:00 recovery: crawl along the bottom for target dive time of 1:30-2:00.
-Conditioning#2: 3xStatic+50m. static times increase each dive and are either (15,30,45) or (45,1:00,1:15) w/3:00 recovery. Buddy signals static end and watches last 10m ** Static+Dynamic is in my opinion the best pool training for depth as it simulates what happens in depth as closely as possible.. you can use more complicated versions like 25m+30sec static+ 50m to simulate normal dive profiles in the 50m range.
Wow, you mean, even beginners can do the stuff you describe here? My personal best is still 50 m dynamic (WITH fins) after 3 years of freediving. I do have to admit that I'm only freediving now and then, but you can forget about me doing 5x50m. Or you should give me 5-6 minutes to recover after each 50m. Same goes for dive times of 1:30-2:00 while moving. I get to 1 minute and then I'm done. And as 50 m is my personal best in dynamic, you can also forget about me doing a static before it. Should I feel bad about myself now? I don't know. The thing is: I am feeling bad about myself. :-/
 

Nathan Vinski

Well-Known Member
Apr 19, 2015
247
145
58
24
Canada
Wow, you mean, even beginners can do the stuff you describe here? My personal best is still 50 m dynamic (WITH fins) after 3 years of freediving. I do have to admit that I'm only freediving now and then, but you can forget about me doing 5x50m. Or you should give me 5-6 minutes to recover after each 50m. Same goes for dive times of 1:30-2:00 while moving. I get to 1 minute and then I'm done. And as 50 m is my personal best in dynamic, you can also forget about me doing a static before it. Should I feel bad about myself now? I don't know. The thing is: I am feeling bad about myself. :-/
First of all you should never feel bad about where you are, or how long it takes to progress. Everyone is at a different level for different reasons and thats totally OK.

And yes.. the training I described is possible for relative beginners as long as they have either developed a decent base in CO2 training or are mentally tough. Unless you have a haemoglobin/ iron problem 50m DYN should never be Hypoxic and the only limiting factor at this distance would be tolerance to contractions/CO2. Horrible fining technique and posture will also increase CO2 production as well as overall stress-tension. Also, adding statics before dynamics isn't as bad as it seems, until you are reaching 1:30+ statics the actual relaxation effect of the static can actually make the DYN more comfortable, and the increased dive response that set in during the STA can counter the possibility of extra Hypoxia by reducing O2 consumption during the DYN. Its more an exercise of relaxation that it is an exercise of hypoxia as well as a simulation of Freefall+ ascent during a CWT dive.

I have no awareness of the training that you've done in the past 3 years so I cannot come to definitive conclusions but what I can say is that in almost all cases 50m DYN is initially difficult because of urge to breath, not because of low O2. If you haven't moved on from that limit it is most likely because of lack of CO2 training and not because of a breath hold limitation..

You could start off easy doing a 25m CO2 table (2:00 breathing +25m DYN, 1:45 breathing +25m DYN, reducing recovery by 15 seconds until you do 00:15 breathing +25m DYN)

When that isn't so hard do a 16x25m for time.. Its a race against the clock on this one. Try limiting to 20-25 seconds recovery for every 25m at first, and eventually get it down to 1-2 breaths recovery between each 25m.

Finally you can do the conventional Co2 table (2:00, 1:45, 1:30,... 00:15) with a 50m dynamic and then a 16x50m with 30-45 seconds recovery.

It could take a lot of mental strength to do these but its important that you do push yourself quite hard, and even if it gets uncomfortable you just keep going and work through it.. Just make sure not to over do it and fall into over training, 1-2 times per week is enough and you should see good improvements on your ability to tolerate contractions. Once you can do a 16x50, going farther than 50 with a 5 min breath up and a good warm up will be a piece of cake.
 

zarb

Member
Sep 8, 2012
10
0
11
Oz
Nathan,

I'm interested in what your thoughts are on over training for beginners. You mentioned earlier that 2-3 sessions of any apnea training in the week would count as overdoing it.

I'm currently doing 2 days of open water (mostly line work, but sometimes just exploring structures) no deeper than 25m currently (limitation of the site more than my limitations). I'm also doing 3 evenings a week of pool training (mix of technique, DYN, STA), and a night or two of short dry tables. Is it sustainable? I've been feeling great and love being able to do it multiple times a week.
 

Jo_duiker

Active Member
Jan 16, 2014
106
21
33
44
Ieper (Ypres), Belgium
Nathan,

I'm interested in what your thoughts are on over training for beginners. You mentioned earlier that 2-3 sessions of any apnea training in the week would count as overdoing it.

I'm currently doing 2 days of open water (mostly line work, but sometimes just exploring structures) no deeper than 25m currently (limitation of the site more than my limitations). I'm also doing 3 evenings a week of pool training (mix of technique, DYN, STA), and a night or two of short dry tables. Is it sustainable? I've been feeling great and love being able to do it multiple times a week.
Sounds like you've got WAY more time than me. You still consider yourself a beginner? I'm asking this as you are asking what is to be considered overtraining for beginners. I may be the only exception to the general saying that one can learn to freedive to -20m in 2-3 days (and boy, do I HATE that commercial talk!), but I really don't consider freediving to -25 m as a beginner's ability, especially when you indicate that your diving site is your limitation and not your ability. ...I'm still full of frustrations, yes... :)

@Nathan Vinski: my main problems are: no time, no buddy, and yes: I do admit that I do not like contractions at all, so I do not want/like to train to endure them (read: push myself). I give up after 10-20 seconds of contractions every single time. (In dynamic with fins, that is.) That last problem can not really be solved without having (more) time and especially: having a good buddy and training possibilities. Until I have those (which will probably never happen), I'll be whining here... being thankful I'm allowed to write about my frustrations here.
 
DeeperBlue.com - The Worlds Largest Community Dedicated To Freediving, Scuba Diving and Spearfishing

ABOUT US

ISSN 1469-865X | Copyright © 1996 - 2020 deeperblue.net limited.

DeeperBlue.com is the World's Largest Community dedicated to Freediving, Scuba Diving, Spearfishing and Diving Travel.

We've been dedicated to bringing you the freshest news, features and discussions from around the underwater world since 1996.

ADVERT