Thanks for the response Hawkeye. However I have already poked the holes in my hood with the technique that you mentioned. In fact I have even tried taking the hood off and still have problems while inverted diving down along the rope. Strange problem indeed.
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Problem with equalisation upside down
- Thread starter_Andy_
- Start date
Thread Status: Hello
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Hey Phil!
I am currently using the valsalva because it's the only method I know how to use. Just like pdabill I've spent numerous of hours trying to get Frenzel right but I just can't seem to get it. But I will keep trying until I get it right. Thank you!
Zeuser - I've tried looking down, up, sideways, moving my head around so I don't think that's the solution for me but thank you.
I'm off to Egypt in a couple of days so I'm going to get the opportunity to try all of your tips and suggestions. Since I'll be staying there for 7 months, snorkelling in the Red Sea on a daily basis, I'll hopefully learn to EQ head down eventually
Hello Andy,
I know exactly your problem, as I have had the same until recently. I could not equalize in the upside-down position, so during the dive I had to turn every 4-5 m in order to equalize, then turn again and continue... Not the best way to free dive. I believe that it is due to some anatomic specificity (narrow Eustachian tubes, the surrounding soft tissues prone to inflation under increased blood pressure, etc.). Needless to say, I have received many suggestions, and none of them worked - I do not say that they were not reasonable, but these were nuances (position of the head, relaxation, etc) which might be useful for someone who is already able to equalize, in order to improve his performance, but it did not work in my case.
Well, the solution is to switch to Frentzel (also known as Marcante-Odaglia) manoeuver. It took me more than 6 monts to learn it - apparently I was not very talented - but I finally realized that I can equalize on dry without using my diaphragm. After that I checked and found that I can equalize in this way even with my head down (on land): I used to hang head-down, with my leggs attached to the ladder (on the children's playground), and it worked. Then I tried in the pool, first at 2m, then at 5m, and I realized that I could finally equalize no matter of the position of my body. Finally it worked in the sea, as well. Of course, one has to continue to improve the equalization technique, as in transition from one step to another one can experience small problems, but the most important conclusion is that Frentzel allows equalization even to those with "poorly designed ears&Eustachian tubes". In my opinion, it is not only the question of pressure exercised to the middle ear using Frentzel (although people say that in this way you can create pressure superior to the Valsava), but the Frentzel manoeuver engages specific muscles around the Eustachian tubes in such a way that they open more easily even when exposed to lower pressure (with respect to Valsava).
In my opinion, this is the only true solution to your problem. I was surprised that some instructors, even well known ones, did not seem to be familiar with this problem, and they were not able to give me a proper advice. Thus, learning Frentzel can take some time, but it will certainly pay off. It might take much less time, I suppose, if you have someone to show you and practice with you. I also remember that E. Fattah once wrote that he was able to teach all of his students to perform this technique within hours/days. So, try to learn this technique and be persistent.
Good luck,
Radomir
I know exactly your problem, as I have had the same until recently. I could not equalize in the upside-down position, so during the dive I had to turn every 4-5 m in order to equalize, then turn again and continue... Not the best way to free dive. I believe that it is due to some anatomic specificity (narrow Eustachian tubes, the surrounding soft tissues prone to inflation under increased blood pressure, etc.). Needless to say, I have received many suggestions, and none of them worked - I do not say that they were not reasonable, but these were nuances (position of the head, relaxation, etc) which might be useful for someone who is already able to equalize, in order to improve his performance, but it did not work in my case.
Well, the solution is to switch to Frentzel (also known as Marcante-Odaglia) manoeuver. It took me more than 6 monts to learn it - apparently I was not very talented - but I finally realized that I can equalize on dry without using my diaphragm. After that I checked and found that I can equalize in this way even with my head down (on land): I used to hang head-down, with my leggs attached to the ladder (on the children's playground), and it worked. Then I tried in the pool, first at 2m, then at 5m, and I realized that I could finally equalize no matter of the position of my body. Finally it worked in the sea, as well. Of course, one has to continue to improve the equalization technique, as in transition from one step to another one can experience small problems, but the most important conclusion is that Frentzel allows equalization even to those with "poorly designed ears&Eustachian tubes". In my opinion, it is not only the question of pressure exercised to the middle ear using Frentzel (although people say that in this way you can create pressure superior to the Valsava), but the Frentzel manoeuver engages specific muscles around the Eustachian tubes in such a way that they open more easily even when exposed to lower pressure (with respect to Valsava).
In my opinion, this is the only true solution to your problem. I was surprised that some instructors, even well known ones, did not seem to be familiar with this problem, and they were not able to give me a proper advice. Thus, learning Frentzel can take some time, but it will certainly pay off. It might take much less time, I suppose, if you have someone to show you and practice with you. I also remember that E. Fattah once wrote that he was able to teach all of his students to perform this technique within hours/days. So, try to learn this technique and be persistent.
Good luck,
Radomir
Very old thread, but just wondering if anyone here managed to succeed in finding a solution to this problem? I have the same problem. I can equalise easily while upright, but even out of the water, can't equalise while lying down or inverted. It's pretty weird, but hoping to find a solution as it's extremely annoying. I can hold my breath for ages and swim a good distance on 1 breath, but it sucks when you can't swim deeper with those skills. So far I've had no luck teaching myself the Frenzel
Yeah I have been attempting to pre-equalise at the surface in order to help out. I think it does help a little (as the alternative is not equalising at all). But as soon as I'm inverted the problem occurs. I'll keep trying to teach myself the Frenzel, but hopefully can find someone to actually 'show' me one day. It's tempting to take a course, but expensive if I don't get what I want out of it and already know basics. Interestingly, I get a huge pressure in my head if I do a handstand, so I've always thought that the equalisation problem is stemming from this pressure making it difficult to get air where it needs to go. Don't know how other people go during handstands. Can everyone else equalise out of the water while lying flat or upside down?
Cheers for the help!
Cheers for the help!
I managed to delete this post the first time I drafted it, so here is the short , retyped version, apologies in advance for the bluntness.
With almost 99% certainty I'd say that the answer to your problem is to learn to Frenzel. Based on what you describe I doubt that you will ever be able to improve your equalisation while persisting with the Valsalva, and why would you anyhow? because as you go deeper, regardless of your tube patency, the Valsalva will fail.
In addition, there are real risks of permanently damaging your hearing by round window failure through Valsalva induced overpressure. Valsalva is BAD.
I would suggest that you should redouble your efforts to learn the Frenzel, if you cannot find an instructor, here's what i'd suggest:
1. Read the various how to guides - go to auckland freediving club website and look at the links under equalisation. www.aucklandfreediving.co.nz
2. The most tricky part of learning to Frenzel is decoupling epiglottis and soft palate. My method of doing this is to get a camelback, inflate it, put a big phone book on it (for pressure) then put tube in mouth. Learn to allow air out through nose and into lungs alternately. Focus on stopping air going into lungs while it flows out the nose. This is the position you need for Frenzel.
3. In front of a mirror, slightly open your mouth, block your nose in such a way that you can see the sides of it, press your tonge gently against the top/front of your mouth and make a 'k' sound, watch for flaring of the thin flesh on the side of your nose. Once you see that you are frezeling. A short while later once you consolidate that sucessful action you will strat to 'pop' your ears.
Keep trying until it happens, once you get it your diving will be transformed.
Phil C
www.aucklandfreediving.co.nz
With almost 99% certainty I'd say that the answer to your problem is to learn to Frenzel. Based on what you describe I doubt that you will ever be able to improve your equalisation while persisting with the Valsalva, and why would you anyhow? because as you go deeper, regardless of your tube patency, the Valsalva will fail.
In addition, there are real risks of permanently damaging your hearing by round window failure through Valsalva induced overpressure. Valsalva is BAD.
I would suggest that you should redouble your efforts to learn the Frenzel, if you cannot find an instructor, here's what i'd suggest:
1. Read the various how to guides - go to auckland freediving club website and look at the links under equalisation. www.aucklandfreediving.co.nz
2. The most tricky part of learning to Frenzel is decoupling epiglottis and soft palate. My method of doing this is to get a camelback, inflate it, put a big phone book on it (for pressure) then put tube in mouth. Learn to allow air out through nose and into lungs alternately. Focus on stopping air going into lungs while it flows out the nose. This is the position you need for Frenzel.
3. In front of a mirror, slightly open your mouth, block your nose in such a way that you can see the sides of it, press your tonge gently against the top/front of your mouth and make a 'k' sound, watch for flaring of the thin flesh on the side of your nose. Once you see that you are frezeling. A short while later once you consolidate that sucessful action you will strat to 'pop' your ears.
Keep trying until it happens, once you get it your diving will be transformed.
Phil C
www.aucklandfreediving.co.nz
You can't equalize because you're not able to move your soft palate properly. The soft palate is the key if it's in high block you'll not be able to equalize at all because air is not allowed to pass from mouth to tubes. Buy a thing called OTOVENT and do this exercise, put the otovent in one hole f the nose close the other hole and blow air into the otovent, thatn when the balloon is blowed up, open your mouth put out your tongue and let the balloon deflate a lil and than stop it, deflate a lil than stop it, untill the balloon is totally deflated. This exercise is the basis to learn how to control your soft palate because you stop the air deflating from the ballloon with your soft palate. have fun
Hi guys,
Thanks for all the replies, with a special thanks to Phil C! I had read a lot about the Freznel already, but the point about the nostrils flaring was something that I hadn't heard before & wasn't doing. I've been practicing now with this element in mind & have successfully equalised lying down & hanging upside down. I'll have to wait till this weekend (if the winter weather permits) to try it underwater though. Here's hoping! I also had a confirmation that a deviated septum can cause issues with the Valsalva too. So I'll prob give sparring away. That information may help others with their issues though.
Thanks again guys. Hopefully this has sorted my issue!
Thanks for all the replies, with a special thanks to Phil C! I had read a lot about the Freznel already, but the point about the nostrils flaring was something that I hadn't heard before & wasn't doing. I've been practicing now with this element in mind & have successfully equalised lying down & hanging upside down. I'll have to wait till this weekend (if the winter weather permits) to try it underwater though. Here's hoping! I also had a confirmation that a deviated septum can cause issues with the Valsalva too. So I'll prob give sparring away. That information may help others with their issues though.
Thanks again guys. Hopefully this has sorted my issue!
I had a really hard time to learn how to equalize. I couldn't even equalize head up on 3 meters. I quickly understood Valsalva will be impossible for me. I went through Frenzel manual but it was too complex. Nevertheless I was practicing for 3 weeks every single day, for about 40 minutes. Additionally I started to exercise my jaw muscles, my tongue and generally practicing exercises from Pelizzari's Freediving manual. I couldn't succeed so I started to learn about BVO. I started to experiment with different jaw positions etc.
I already had mastered most of the Frenzel elements but couldn't get soft plate bit right. So instead of endlessly practicing soft plate I decided to put all the elements together. It took me around 1 hour before I was able to equalize using Frenzel for the first time. I guess I was lucky to pull all this together but what's important - once I managed to do it once I was practcing for another hour to "automate" whole process and to give my body opportunity to remember it. With a little breaks I was practicing it everyday, almost all the time for a week. I tested it in water and was able to equalize for the first time.
Few days ago I've hit deeper water for the first time and had no problems getting to 20m head down.
I already had mastered most of the Frenzel elements but couldn't get soft plate bit right. So instead of endlessly practicing soft plate I decided to put all the elements together. It took me around 1 hour before I was able to equalize using Frenzel for the first time. I guess I was lucky to pull all this together but what's important - once I managed to do it once I was practcing for another hour to "automate" whole process and to give my body opportunity to remember it. With a little breaks I was practicing it everyday, almost all the time for a week. I tested it in water and was able to equalize for the first time.
Few days ago I've hit deeper water for the first time and had no problems getting to 20m head down.
Hi guys,
I also didn't want to open new thread because my problem is very similar but very strange on the other hand. To make the explanation short i have problem with equalisation from the first day in the sea and that was like 30y ago when i had my first spearfishing sesion with my father. I have tried many things and different tehniques to improve my equalisation but no success. So i'm stuck to shallow water hunt stalking the fish.
Then this year i decided to go on a PSS free diving course with Jure Daić, Slovenian world records holder, and explain my problem to him and he was 100% sure we will solve my problem, but he can't do it and he said that he never saw or hear for the similar problem like that and then he said if someone maybe know something about it, it could be on this forum.
So when i try eqalise head down i could easily equalise on surface and next around 1-2m deep problem starts at 3m (aprox. 10ft) where sometimes i can sometimes i can't and completely stops at 7m (20ft.), we tried all the tricks Jure knows and we had like 50-60 dives together and no success, we also tried like 10-20 times to dive at shore and go slow almost horizontaly into the deep, same thing everything stops at 7m. We also had a rope fixed on the depth 10m (32ft.) to try dive head down slowly draging the rope, same thing stops at 7m.
On the other hand when i dive head up draging the same rope i can easily equalise both methods to the bottom at 10m, I did it like 10 times without any problem and when i explained Jure what is hapening with equalising trough 0-10m head up he said ok than try to drag down head up to the bottom and than turn around and swim into the deep equalising head down and it went with no problem i manage to eqalise head down after 10m at 12, 14, 16, unfortunatly we tried that on our last sesion and had no time to try reach 20m in this way.
I will also try to explain in english what happend in my eqalisation head up draging the rope down to 10m. i was equalising on the surface, 1-2m, than at 3m, 5m, 7m, 8-9m and than finaly at 10m, all eqalisations were smooth and i hear short beep in my ear and lost the preassure, but every time i dive this way on the botom when i was equalising last time draging head up i hear a very long beeeeeeeeeeep and all my body and head lost all the preassure so it was almost the same filling when u come to the surface????
So what is your opinion, could i have some mecanical problem in my tubes (i also try with some spray medicine before dives which open and soften the tubes) or it can be some psychological block?
I realy want to find solution to my problem
Best regards
Luka
I also didn't want to open new thread because my problem is very similar but very strange on the other hand. To make the explanation short i have problem with equalisation from the first day in the sea and that was like 30y ago when i had my first spearfishing sesion with my father. I have tried many things and different tehniques to improve my equalisation but no success. So i'm stuck to shallow water hunt stalking the fish.
Then this year i decided to go on a PSS free diving course with Jure Daić, Slovenian world records holder, and explain my problem to him and he was 100% sure we will solve my problem, but he can't do it and he said that he never saw or hear for the similar problem like that and then he said if someone maybe know something about it, it could be on this forum.
So when i try eqalise head down i could easily equalise on surface and next around 1-2m deep problem starts at 3m (aprox. 10ft) where sometimes i can sometimes i can't and completely stops at 7m (20ft.), we tried all the tricks Jure knows and we had like 50-60 dives together and no success, we also tried like 10-20 times to dive at shore and go slow almost horizontaly into the deep, same thing everything stops at 7m. We also had a rope fixed on the depth 10m (32ft.) to try dive head down slowly draging the rope, same thing stops at 7m.
On the other hand when i dive head up draging the same rope i can easily equalise both methods to the bottom at 10m, I did it like 10 times without any problem and when i explained Jure what is hapening with equalising trough 0-10m head up he said ok than try to drag down head up to the bottom and than turn around and swim into the deep equalising head down and it went with no problem i manage to eqalise head down after 10m at 12, 14, 16, unfortunatly we tried that on our last sesion and had no time to try reach 20m in this way.
I will also try to explain in english what happend in my eqalisation head up draging the rope down to 10m. i was equalising on the surface, 1-2m, than at 3m, 5m, 7m, 8-9m and than finaly at 10m, all eqalisations were smooth and i hear short beep in my ear and lost the preassure, but every time i dive this way on the botom when i was equalising last time draging head up i hear a very long beeeeeeeeeeep and all my body and head lost all the preassure so it was almost the same filling when u come to the surface????
So what is your opinion, could i have some mecanical problem in my tubes (i also try with some spray medicine before dives which open and soften the tubes) or it can be some psychological block?
I realy want to find solution to my problem
Best regards
Luka
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[FONT="]He is using Valsalva. He was trying to use Frenzel but there was no success. [/FONT]
[FONT="] [/FONT]
[FONT="]The problem with Luka is something I have never seen or heard. Head up he can equalize hands free. When he reaches 10m he can turn head down and after 10m he has no problem with equalization (head down)!!! [/FONT]
[FONT="] [/FONT]
[FONT="]For Luka it is impossible to equalize to 5-7m head down. He is regularly spearfishing for last 30 years and he is no beginner. His Eustachian tubes are blocked diving head down. And head down he newer dived deeper than 5-7m.[/FONT]
[FONT="] [/FONT]
[FONT="]So does anyone have a clue what is the reason for Luka’s equalization problems? [/FONT]
[FONT="] [/FONT]
[FONT="]Jure[/FONT]
[FONT="] [/FONT]
[FONT="]The problem with Luka is something I have never seen or heard. Head up he can equalize hands free. When he reaches 10m he can turn head down and after 10m he has no problem with equalization (head down)!!! [/FONT]
[FONT="] [/FONT]
[FONT="]For Luka it is impossible to equalize to 5-7m head down. He is regularly spearfishing for last 30 years and he is no beginner. His Eustachian tubes are blocked diving head down. And head down he newer dived deeper than 5-7m.[/FONT]
[FONT="] [/FONT]
[FONT="]So does anyone have a clue what is the reason for Luka’s equalization problems? [/FONT]
[FONT="] [/FONT]
[FONT="]Jure[/FONT]
I have a problem that may be the same. Never mind the details. One of the best/most experienced instructors told me that there is a way to hold the eustachian tubes shut so that equalization is impossible.
I'm having some success with;
just before the problem starts (surface in Lukas' case), the head, jaw, air bubble, tongue and neck positions are all optimized. Then I smile, relax the shoulders and do a two step equalization(very gentle first one). It takes a few seconds but then (when it works) I'm good to go until I run out of air.
Don't know if this is any help but I couldn't stay quiet and see a fellow diver suffer.
I'm having some success with;
just before the problem starts (surface in Lukas' case), the head, jaw, air bubble, tongue and neck positions are all optimized. Then I smile, relax the shoulders and do a two step equalization(very gentle first one). It takes a few seconds but then (when it works) I'm good to go until I run out of air.
Don't know if this is any help but I couldn't stay quiet and see a fellow diver suffer.
Bill thank you very much for your advice, but i have tried to relax at the surface as much as i could. I have also tried very slowly head down draging the rope and sometimes i managed to come to 7m without problem eqalising, under 7m not once in my 50-60 dives head down. I could undersand when i would have same issue but less problems head up, but no, with head up i easily drag me down the rope to 10m hands free eqalisation and than when this "strange no pressure filing" comes i could turn head down and easy eqalise further into the deep .
and than when this "strange no pressure filing" comes i could turn head down and easy eqalise further into the deep .
Lucky, do you spearfish? I have seen many people who can use spearfishing to overcome a problem like yours. You seem to be thinking about it to much, even consumed by the problem. Maybe try to get out often with some spearo friends in nice conditions, just having fun in the water, really lots of times. You may find the problem "goes away". I know this is not the technical answer you are looking for, but I have seen many "impossible cases" like yours, who when I meet them 2 years later, are great spearos (and great divers too). Just more fun time in the water.
I've never been able to equalise Valsava head down - it's just not a great equalisation manoeuvre and despite looking easy it can be tricky for some. I would personally just skip Valsava and try something else. Since you can do handsfree, you might as well try that coupled with some Frenzel.
I don't think it's unusual that you are struggling at those depths since the pressure gradient is high and duck dives and strong kicking can cause stress - the fact that you can equalise below 10m shows that you can actually equalise when the pressure gradient is smaller, which is good news really.
I would try again descending slowly at a shallow angle (say 30 degrees) while doing handsfree constantly and lift your head up a bit when you feel any pressure building up - see if you can hear air going in then.
I've personally found 'tubular aerobics' very helpful. It takes a few months of constant practice out of the water (just keep opening your e-tubes repeatedly throughout the day, every day). If you hummmmm while doing it you should be able to tell from the sound whether or not you are opening your e-tubes or not.
Hope you get it sorted out - I am not an instructor or anything but I can't see why you shouldn't be able to sort it out with lots of trial and error and practice. Just don't keep doing the same thing if it doesn't work.
A few other things that helped me, in case they help:
1. Stretching - shoulders, neck and jaw stretches before diving
2. At first I tried making all sorts of stupid faces while descending in order to try activating me e-tube muscles, what seems to work for me is opening me mouth while keeping my lips closed (once you get it you can do without the faces).
3. Equalising at surface and less aggressive duck dives, making sure I equalise at 0.5m, 1m, 1.5m etc (more or less I am constantly equalising)
4. Head-spine position - oddly at first I had to be lifting my head but once I got it a neutral spine/head position really helped.
5. I did some dives where I would go descend head down but when I hit the equalisation problem, I would turn head up, equalise and then turn again and continue head down. Sounds a bit mad but I think it helped me psychologically as I could actually get to the tag while finning head down all the way. It also earned me a prize for the worst dive haha
I don't think it's unusual that you are struggling at those depths since the pressure gradient is high and duck dives and strong kicking can cause stress - the fact that you can equalise below 10m shows that you can actually equalise when the pressure gradient is smaller, which is good news really.
I would try again descending slowly at a shallow angle (say 30 degrees) while doing handsfree constantly and lift your head up a bit when you feel any pressure building up - see if you can hear air going in then.
I've personally found 'tubular aerobics' very helpful. It takes a few months of constant practice out of the water (just keep opening your e-tubes repeatedly throughout the day, every day). If you hummmmm while doing it you should be able to tell from the sound whether or not you are opening your e-tubes or not.
Hope you get it sorted out - I am not an instructor or anything but I can't see why you shouldn't be able to sort it out with lots of trial and error and practice. Just don't keep doing the same thing if it doesn't work.
A few other things that helped me, in case they help:
1. Stretching - shoulders, neck and jaw stretches before diving
2. At first I tried making all sorts of stupid faces while descending in order to try activating me e-tube muscles, what seems to work for me is opening me mouth while keeping my lips closed (once you get it you can do without the faces).
3. Equalising at surface and less aggressive duck dives, making sure I equalise at 0.5m, 1m, 1.5m etc (more or less I am constantly equalising)
4. Head-spine position - oddly at first I had to be lifting my head but once I got it a neutral spine/head position really helped.
5. I did some dives where I would go descend head down but when I hit the equalisation problem, I would turn head up, equalise and then turn again and continue head down. Sounds a bit mad but I think it helped me psychologically as I could actually get to the tag while finning head down all the way. It also earned me a prize for the worst dive haha
i agree with azapa sometimes its very psychosomatic especially if uv had long running problems i struggled for a long time heads down but could do heads up no problem then i stopped paying attention to it and one day the problem just disappeared i think the harder u try the worse the results, i personally have burst both eardrums about a half dozen times each from cronic ear infections as a child and have minor surfers ear from growng up in cold water i usually stuck at 25ft heads down, since i knew that was a sticking point i really think that subconsciously i would tense up anticipating a problem upon reaching that depth then one day i was just diving taking pictures and looked at my computer and I was at 60ft and i havnt had problems since. For awhile too i was using sports supplements that has heavy vasoconstrictors in them and i noticed that a happy side effect was very easy equalizing im guessing the vasoconstrictors prevented any kind of inflammation in sinuses etc.
Guys thank you very much for your effort but as i said i'm spearfishing for the last 30 years and when i do it i'm really relaxed and enjoying it. That was also the main reason to try apnea course with Jure.
But as someone said it also can be psychological deep in my head because i can't beat that for 30 years. So next end of the week i go to 14 days holiday with my family and i will try to do it when i'm with my 2 daughters and try not to think about it when playing hide and seek in sea or something similar.
So can someone explain this 2nd issue about eqalising on 10m. Is that normal or not? So my eqalising up 10m head up is easy and smooth but i still feel little preassure in my ears and head and when i come down to 10m and eqalise i get this long beeeeeeep in my ear and preassure in my head and ears dissapear, like my eustachian tubes are completely permeabled and opened from 10m and down.
Regards
Luka
but as i said i'm spearfishing for the last 30 years and when i do it i'm really relaxed and enjoying it. That was also the main reason to try apnea course with Jure. But as someone said it also can be psychological deep in my head because i can't beat that for 30 years. So next end of the week i go to 14 days holiday with my family and i will try to do it when i'm with my 2 daughters and try not to think about it when playing hide and seek in sea or something similar
.So can someone explain this 2nd issue about eqalising on 10m. Is that normal or not? So my eqalising up 10m head up is easy and smooth but i still feel little preassure in my ears and head and when i come down to 10m and eqalise i get this long beeeeeeep in my ear and preassure in my head and ears dissapear, like my eustachian tubes are completely permeabled and opened from 10m and down.
Regards
Luka