Question Problems with Frenzel

[alanpoon]

Hi everyone!

Have been reading through this forum for the past few weeks, feels like a really great supportive community, very excited to join!

So I've been training for my AIDA 2 for the past couple of months, and have been on 5 ocean dives with amazing instructors (Roberta and Matt in Vancouver). Like many other beginners on this forum, I'm having a lot of trouble with Frenzel.

Initially I tried to not over-think it and kept it simple for a few weeks, closed my glottis and focused on the back of my tongue - can do a mild equalization, but was not strong enough to be successful underwater. After a month without success, I started reading more about the detailed steps - practiced opening and closing my glottis for days, practiced raising and lowering my soft palate for days, have been practicing and experimenting both dry and with a snorkel in the bathtub for weeks with no luck.

I *think* I've narrowed it down to my soft palate.

I can control my soft palate really well with my glottis open. I can breathe in and breathe out, and switch between breathing through my nose and mouth quite rapidly. I can also open and close my glottis rapidly to stop my breath while breathing in or out.

I can't seem to control my soft palate with my glottis closed. When my glottis is closed, my soft palate is raised, and I can't make it neutral! When I fill my cheeks with air and close my glottis, I've been trying to squeeze the air from my cheeks through my nose with no luck.

Have been experimenting and practicing for weeks with no luck, so I'm desperate for some suggestions! Including - "Stop thinking about it this way, and try something completely different".

Thanks in advance!
Alan

(By the way, I'm an experienced scuba diver and can make it down 40m without any issues with valsalva. So, I know what it feels like to equalize and don't have any physical issues getting to depth. In case that makes a difference)

 

[Nathan Vinski]

Hey @alanpoon

It's almost impossible to diagnose eq troubles from behind a computer screen, so I won't pretend to be able to tell you exactly what's going wrong in your case.

But..

If the toungue position + motion are correct, you should not have to worry about your glottis or soft palate at all.

The best way to confirm that the motion and position are correct is to do Frenzels after a full exhale, with your mouth wide open (out of water of course)..

Play with that, and learn from experimenting. the more you do out of the water, the better you will get in the water.

 

[alanpoon]

Hey @alanpoon

It's almost impossible to diagnose eq troubles from behind a computer screen, so I won't pretend to be able to tell you exactly what's going wrong in your case.

But..

If the toungue position + motion are correct, you should not have to worry about your glottis or soft palate at all.

The best way to confirm that the motion and position are correct is to do Frenzels after a full exhale, with your mouth wide open (out of water of course)..

Play with that, and learn from experimenting. the more you do out of the water, the better you will get in the water.

Thanks for the quick reply!

Yes, had tried that for weeks - focused just on tongue position and motion, ignoring glottis and soft palate, full exhale, mouth wide open, in front of the mirror. I've seen videos of how it's supposed to look, and it "looks" right, and causes a mild equalization. Have tried playing around with different tongue positions and motions, still no luck. Literally trying every day at random points throughout the day Just keep trying?

 

[Nathan Vinski]

Like i said..

Super hard to diagnose specifics without being in front of you.

If you feel a "mild equalisation" you soft palate is open, you're just not creating enough power or using enough air..

My guess would be improper position or motion, not soft palate. If that's closed you wouldn't feel even the slightest equalisation

 

[alanpoon]

Like i said..

Super hard to diagnose specifics without being in front of you.

If you feel a "mild equalisation" you soft palate is open, you're just not creating enough power or using enough air..

My guess would be improper position or motion, not soft palate. If that's closed you wouldn't feel even the slightest equalisation

Got it, thanks! After a few days, I'm noticing that the equalization is getting slightly stronger each day, so maybe I just have to keep trying different tongue movements and practicing. Thanks again!