Promoting good safety culture

[Siku]

I'm running the sessions in our local pool and have been working hard to install good practices:

* Attentive and close buddying
* Knowledge of safety procedures
* 30" observation
* surface protocol
* others?

Sometimes it feels like they all think I'm crazy - we're only doing 25m lengths after all. One person said "I've been doing lengths underwater (alone) all my life".

Any suggestions welcome.

 

[trux]

What is crucial in terms of safety everywhere, not only in freediving, is the redundancy. Usually everything works fine, but you can bet that when you need it most, the safety measure you previewed will fail. For this reason having backup plans is important.

For example, the safety in our club, during our pool trainings has several layers of redundancy:
1) Direct buddy surveillance
2) General awarness of freedivers - they are askes to look around and react if they see a problem.
3) The instructor is out of the water, and assures freedivers follow the buddy principles, and tries to identify risky behaviour.
4) There is a dedicated professional life guard, whose only task is watching our group of freedivers, and not having any other tasks in the pool. This is actually mandatory for all clubs, in all pools here.

Then you have to have also plans what to actually do in case of an accident, and also perform regular drills simulating such an accident. If you do not drill it, you can be sure nobody will know what to do in case it is really needed.

 

[Simos]

I am all for drills too - until you drill it, you never understand how you should be buddying.

Give a prize to whoever can be "BO" during or shortly after a length without being noticed by anyone

Unfortunately, nothing really beats seeing some real incidents - I've seen two so far while training (excluding comps):

The first one, although I was outside the pool for that exercise, I just stood there watching until someone from inside the pool went to the rescue. I kind of saw it coming but still I just watched and was way too slow to react - I was stupidly thinking that surely someone closer would go to the rescue (luckily they did). I played it many times in my head, got annoyed with myself and thought about over and over again what I should have done instead.

The second one, I saw it coming, was swimming towards them before it even happened (even though I had a bit of distance to cover as I wasn't buddying) and got their first before there were any issues, while most of the others were thinking that someone closer would probably go to the rescue.

Same with the drills - first time, I must have missed half the 'BOs' near me. Second time, I was there before they even had the chance to pretend they BOed.

Nothing beats practice.

 

[Canetoad Films]

You may find these helpful:

SAMBAS AND BLACKOUTS
https://vimeo.com/2060317[url] SUR... TRAINING [url]https://vimeo.com/2060317[url]

 

[Siku]

Thanks all.

Canetoad you posted the same link twice?

 

[esom]

safty culture- i like this idea, because it makes clear that saftey it´s not only about rules (and rules how to apply the rules plus rules that define the freediving that is appropriate for applying those rules...)
but that safety is more soft than words on a forum. to stay with your example of the 25ers:
for me, applying a more general rule regarding safety, although it seems to be exegerated for 25ers can promote a good safety culture and show the freedom and additional attention that is created by accepting this rule: you can be less concernd about safety, speak less about safety, consequently dive better and dive more.
applying a special safety rule that seems to be appropriate to the demand/skill level ratio of the group regarding 25ers can promote good safty culture too. because this way it can be made a subject that not rules produces safety, but the way they are applied out of different possibilities.

 

[Canetoad Films]

Thanks all.

Canetoad you posted the same link twice?

ops...

Surface Protocol in Training

https://vimeo.com/41198753

 

[Simos]

ops...

Surface Protocol in Training

https://vimeo.com/41198753

I don't like the AIDA surface protocol I have to say - I think it's just something made up for competitions (necessary evil) but I don't think it promotes proper safety.

A few issues I see with it:

1. People come up from a dive and the first thing on their mind is to give an ok sign and say they are ok - it's like they are obsessed. Many times they say they are ok before they've even taken a breath in. I've seen this countless times.

2. In pool exercises where 'rotation' is needed (i.e. you are waiting for the other person to come up so that you can start your length) or when line diving in a buddy pair, often the buddy is too keen to start their dive and do so as soon as they receive the ok sign (which means nothing).

3. The buddy is not allowed to touch in the surface protocol - I think it's important the buddy maintains contact when someone has just come up from a dive and is ready to support their buddy.

4. The main issue is that the diver gives some kind of sign to 'convince' the buddy he is ok - by definition, the diver who is NOT ok will also try to do so and if the buddy is deceived, you are in trouble.

I really think it should be the other way round. The diver needs to just worry about doing recovery breaths and being ok and it's the buddy's job to make sure 100% that his buddy is ok before he moves on to do anything else.

 

[FreeRestriction]

I don't like the AIDA surface protocol I have to say - I think it's just something made up for competitions (necessary evil) but I don't think it promotes proper safety.

A few issues I see with it:

1. People come up from a dive and the first thing on their mind is to give an ok sign and say they are ok - it's like they are obsessed. Many times they say they are ok before they've even taken a breath in. I've seen this countless times.

2. In pool exercises where 'rotation' is needed (i.e. you are waiting for the other person to come up so that you can start your length) or when line diving in a buddy pair, often the buddy is too keen to start their dive and do so as soon as they receive the ok sign (which means nothing).

3. The buddy is not allowed to touch in the surface protocol - I think it's important the buddy maintains contact when someone has just come up from a dive and is ready to support their buddy.

4. The main issue is that the diver gives some kind of sign to 'convince' the buddy he is ok - by definition, the diver who is NOT ok will also try to do so and if the buddy is deceived, you are in trouble.

I really think it should be the other way round. The diver needs to just worry about doing recovery breaths and being ok and it's the buddy's job to make sure 100% that his buddy is ok before he moves on to do anything else.

Bassically what you say in your last paragraph is what should happen. I think aida requires a removal of nose clip and mask prior to an ok sign. Or i think i heard that. And indeed it is within a set time of 10 seconds or something like that. But you can do recovery breaths in that time aswell. Also any safety who isnt watching the diver for 30 seconds after surfacing isnt doing his job and if they are diving in such a way that it makes that not possible then thats a failure on the part of those divers. The ok sign is used to see how well the diver can control his fingers. If he cant get his pointer finger and thumb to touch tip to tip thats a clue to his state. Also maybe his hands shaking as he gives the sign. Or perhaps he comes up and says hes ok and gives the sign to the bouy because hes confused. These are all clues to his current state. The ok sign and saying "im ok" are nothing more then a test given for the safety to observe. And it dosent stop at that. You observe for 30 seconds. What is said really dosent matter. You could have protocal be to say "hot dog" and give the "hot dog" sign. The point is to get the diver to SHOW you hes ok. Not tell you. But none of the above i think is affected with AIDA protocol?

 

[Simos]

Bassically what you say in your last paragraph is what should happen. I think aida requires a removal of nose clip and mask prior to an ok sign. Or i think i heard that. And indeed it is within a set time of 10 seconds or something like that. But you can do recovery breaths in that time aswell. Also any safety who isnt watching the diver for 30 seconds after surfacing isnt doing his job and if they are diving in such a way that it makes that not possible then thats a failure on the part of those divers. The ok sign is used to see how well the diver can control his fingers. If he cant get his pointer finger and thumb to touch tip to tip thats a clue to his state. Also maybe his hands shaking as he gives the sign. Or perhaps he comes up and says hes ok and gives the sign to the bouy because hes confused. These are all clues to his current state. The ok sign and saying "im ok" are nothing more then a test given for the safety to observe. And it dosent stop at that. You observe for 30 seconds. What is said really dosent matter. You could have protocal be to say "hot dog" and give the "hot dog" sign. The point is to get the diver to SHOW you hes ok. Not tell you. But none of the above i think is affected with AIDA protocol?

What I meant is that the AIDA protocol, while it does the job for competitions is not the ideal solution for training in a pool or other budding. e.g. a simple thing we do in our club is ask another question to the diver, for example 'what day is it today'. Tells you if someone is mentally there better than them saying they are ok out of habit.

AIDA does require the removal of any facial equipment - again, this is not really necessarily the first thing you should be worrying about when you surface. It just takes more concentration and oxygen to do this.

All I am saying is that if I was starting my own freediving club tomorrow and no one wanted to take part in freediving competitions, I would not choose to adopt the AIDA surface protocol as something everyone has to do but I would come up with a different protocol, based on the above.

Of course, if people are training to take part to AIDA competitions, then I think you should do the AIDA protocol 100% of the time while training so that your body learns to do it on 'auto-pilot', even if you are not ok!

 

[FreeRestriction]

What I meant is that the AIDA protocol, while it does the job for competitions is not the ideal solution for training in a pool or other budding. e.g. a simple thing we do in our club is ask another question to the diver, for example 'what day is it today'. Tells you if someone is mentally there better than them saying they are ok out of habit.

AIDA does require the removal of any facial equipment - again, this is not really necessarily the first thing you should be worrying about when you surface. It just takes more concentration and oxygen to do this.

All I am saying is that if I was starting my own freediving club tomorrow and no one wanted to take part in freediving competitions, I would not choose to adopt the AIDA surface protocol as something everyone has to do but I would come up with a different protocol, based on the above.

Of course, if people are training to take part to AIDA competitions, then I think you should do the AIDA protocol 100% of the time while training so that your body learns to do it on 'auto-pilot', even if you are not ok!

I see... Well theres nothing wrong with adding more safety to your personal protocol. But i think for me personally trying to answer a trivia question correctly after a difficult dive would impair me from focusing on recovery more. Even if not diving but having just ran a mile then being hit with what the date was id have trouble giving a response in a timely manner. what im getting at is that type of question answered incorrectly may not mean anythings wrong. keeping it second nature and easy to remember what to do even when your not ok insures that the diver will still "take the test" for you the safety to observe. If hes not ok he cant really "pass the test" no matter how well he remembers what to do. but if he sqeaks by it wont really matter because youll be watching him as he begins to have problems. think of it like a drunk that practices field sobriety tests alot. no matter how much he practices hes going to fail if hes drunk.

 

[Simos]

I see... Well theres nothing wrong with adding more safety to your personal protocol. But i think for me personally trying to answer a trivia question correctly after a difficult dive would impair me from focusing on recovery more. Even if not diving but having just ran a mile then being hit with what the date was id have trouble giving a response in a timely manner. what im getting at is that type of question answered incorrectly may not mean anythings wrong. keeping it second nature and easy to remember what to do even when your not ok insures that the diver will still "take the test" for you the safety to observe. If hes not ok he cant really "pass the test" no matter how well he remembers what to do. but if he sqeaks by it wont really matter because youll be watching him as he begins to have problems. think of it like a drunk that practices field sobriety tests alot. no matter how much he practices hes going to fail if hes drunk.

Yes agree - and we don't ask the question right away obviously, towards the end of the recovery period as the last test.

In the sea or lake, I like to be able to have a short conversation with someone that just surfaced and has recovered, before diving myself. This way, you know they are 100% - not point in diving back to back, in any case if they've just come up they need to have a half-decent recovery before they can be of any use as safety.

 

[osusim]

I'm running the sessions in our local pool

What exactly do you plan to do? Max attempts, O2 tables, CO2 tables, air rings making, underwater filming?
Never dive alone during training outside your limits, the rest is just demagogy.

 

[Canetoad Films]

I understand the disagreements with the AIDA surface protocol. I have never had a problem with them, just glad there is a line that is unvaried. I would encompass a new protocol without much trouble, but I think there should be a protocol so that the Judges in a comp can clearly see the diver is OK. At the moment, those three things seem to do it. I would be more keen to have the "pulling" restriction changed.

Re: the diver's huge attention on SP rather than getting O2. This may be the case with new divers but it doesn't take long to train the diver to handle his recovery breathing before doing SP. An experienced diver who is doing them out of order, or compulsively working on facial gear instead of recovery breath is probably a bit too hypoxic.

We have a lot of people training in the pool each week in Sydney Freedivers and in Curtis Coast Freedivers and when they are doing tables or fast follow on drills the SP is dropped by agreement, but this is always known about explained to new divers.

The intention here is to turn the SP into a tool that both safety divers and athletes can use to their advantage. And it does keep overal training within safe bounds.

 

[Siku]

What exactly do you plan to do? Max attempts, O2 tables, CO2 tables, air rings making, underwater filming?
Never dive alone during training outside your limits, the rest is just demagogy.

All of that but no max attempts, because there's no such thing in our training system. And no demagogy because that would raise the heart rate too much ;-)

We try and have as much variety (and fun) as possible.

 

[osusim]

Florida lifeguard fired after saving drowning man - CNN.com
rofl