Question about getting a blackoutee to the surface.

[naiad]

There is also the problem of accidentally causing injury. Of course, it's worth it to save someone's life, but it wouldn't be good to come round from a blackout with broken ribs and a ruptured spleen because of someone's attempts to remove inhaled water.

Injury caused by misguided use of the Heimlich maneuver...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/2587739.stm

The links posted above by Mr X are interesting.

Lucia

 

[Mr. X]

There is also the problem of accidentally causing injury. Of course, it's worth it to save someone's life, but it wouldn't be good to come round from a blackout with broken ribs and a ruptured spleen because of someone's attempts to remove inhaled water.

Injury caused by misguided use of the Heimlich maneuver...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/2587739.stm

The links posted above by Mr X are interesting.

Lucia

Interesting article. You have to wonder what the guy was thinking ...& doing to have broken ribs. The Heimlich goes around & under the ribs; pressure is applied under the diaphragm, not to the ribs at all. I did it to a friend in a restaurant as a group of colleagues sat round watching the guy choking & changing colour (he was a big fit guy though, 6ft 2"). I asked him if he wanted me to do it & he nodded approval...rather urgently. He assures me I saved his life every time I see him. Asking permission seems a sensible first step (which they don't teach strangely).

Heard a case on the radio this week where a guy was telling how a 92 year old relation (grandfather/uncle/?) had a good death when he collapsed visiting the toilet at a restaurant with his family, having just told his niece who accompanied him how much he loved her. The narrator criticized somebody who tried to revive him, for spoiling an otherwise good death. Not sure what the lesson is from that -- be careful & ask permission perhaps.

The back slapping they recommend is explicitly not recommended by Heimlich (for whatever that is worth!) but I tried it on a choking infant & it did not work at all, much to my dismay. I did not use heimlich though...don't recall why, probably did not want to risk causing injury on so small a child & prob. could recall the special technique for infants. I cleared his throat with my finger, which fortunately worked, but he did not start breathing again immediately ...continued turning blue. A sudden shock (arrival of emergency services) frightened him into a sudden intake of breath, followed by a loud scream! Phew.

 

[naiad]

The Heimlich goes around & under the ribs; pressure is applied under the diaphragm, not to the ribs at all. I did it to a friend in a restaurant as a group of colleagues sat round watching the guy choking & changing colour (he was a big fit guy though, 6ft 2"). I asked him if he wanted me to do it & he nodded approval...rather urgently. He assures me I saved his life every time I see him. Asking permission seems a sensible first step (which they don't teach strangely).

I agree that asking permission (where possible!) is important. After some bad experiences in hospitals, I am very scared that if I have an accident, I will be given painful treatment which I don't want, and there will be no way of avoiding it.

I saw that in a book of diving first aid (can't remember the title) it said to always ask permission before giving treatment, and also to explain what is happening.

Of course if someone is unconscious or in an altered state of mind, this might not be possible.

Lucia

 

[portinfer]

Sorry to go back to the weight belt issue but I was wondering what people's thoughts were on rescuing someone who was spearfishing and was more heavily weighted than a freediver.

As a freediver you may encounter this situation I guess.

Anyway, lets say it is in relatively shallow water. The guy has weighted himself to be neutral at 6m but has come across a great patch at 15m and dropped down for some aspetto, gone over time and blacked out.

So if you were a buddy spotting him or a freediver watching him you would just see him spasm on the bottom I guess ?

I understand that deeper blackouts are very dangerous but I was wondering what the problems would be in such a situation (of course you would have to get to him, ditch the belt, ditch your belt and head up).

I am curious as this describes a potential situation for my local conditions.

Or is it the same if you blackout at 15m or 30m ? I just assumed that around the 10m to 15m range you had more leeway for recovery ?

Ed

 

[immerlustig]

hi ed,

i am not spearfishing but here are some ideas anyway.
you don't necessasrily see the diver spasming before bo, there can be a variety of signs or no signs at all, which is rare, though. or you fail to see them, which happens a lot. being neutral at 6 and diving to 15 won't make the diver very heavy, really, but you should try that. dropping a weightbelt is always an option in any case but for spearing you might want to make it a habit.
is the safety diver usually surface spotting? if there are chances that the diver overstays at depth and bo's there (lying around waiting for fish?) then the safety diver should spot at depth (descending after 1 minute, for example). the spearing depth shouldn't be deeper than the depth from which the spotter can still efficiently rescue the diver. and maybe there shouldn't be deep water but rather a bottom.
blacking out deeper can lead to more complications (longer ascent, greater possibility of water in the victims lungs, longer bo, etc). see above discussion.
low vis? is the spearo diving on a line which the spotter could follow down? if you are diving with the same people it should be easy to work out a routine.

would be interesting to hear some comments from other spearos.

roland

 

[ROBERT REYES]

Take the WEIGHT BELT OUT, it makes life so much easy, and laringospasm reflex will keep the water out.
I have taken a few divers out, spearfishing most of the time, so it took a few seconds to get to them, no matter what, its always a diferent situation and you have to improvise acordingly.
When pure freediving, is actually very easy, you are right on top of him, and
swiming with him to the surface, just let the weight belt go, (diver should be buoyant at this point anyways) and get his face out of the water, talk to him, he will recover fast , or give 2 air infussions in case it is taking too long to breath, dont panic, be calm, and keep telling him to breath.
Being alone, is were the real problem is.

 

[Mr. X]

I agree that asking permission (where possible!) is important. ....Of course if someone is unconscious or in an altered state of mind, this might not be possible.

In which case let them die...and avoid the potential lawsuit?

 

[naiad]

rofl

I meant, just go ahead with the first aid!

"Do you want me to rescue you... no answer... well, I guess you don't..."

Notice to everyone: if I black out, please do rescue me, even if I don't ask for help. There won't be any lawsuit!

On the weightbelt issue, surely if both weightbelts are ditched, it wouldn't be too much work to get to the surface? There would be a big increase in buoyancy.

Lucia

 

[Mr. X]

rofl

I meant, just go ahead with the first aid!

"Do you want me to rescue you... no answer... well, I guess you don't..."

Notice to everyone: if I black out, please do rescue me, even if I don't ask for help. There won't be any lawsuit!

On the weightbelt issue, surely if both weightbelts are ditched, it wouldn't be too much work to get to the surface? There would be a big increase in buoyancy.

Lucia

Hey - no signed consent form, no CPR!

 

[ROBERT REYES]

Well, I had to kiss my Frech buddy to wake him up, at least that is the
way everybody laugh at me about it, but his lips were black, he was not
breathing, his weighbelt had to be cut from him, because he used to lock it some way, and in rough weather it was harder than you would think or do on a normal practice.
Not a joke when you are spearing.

 

[naiad]

That sounds like a serious blackout. It must have been very scary. Well done for sorting it out.

It's important to make sure that your weightbelt can be released quickly.

Lucia

 

[DeepThought]

his weighbelt had to be cut from him, because he used to lock it some way,

It is important to share those kind of things with your partner... for example when diving with all those special buckled weightbelts...

 

[Mr. X]

Well, I had to kiss my Frech buddy to wake him up, at least that is the
way everybody laugh at me about it, but his lips were black, he was not
breathing, his weighbelt had to be cut from him, because he used to lock it some way, and in rough weather it was harder than you would think or do on a normal practice.
Not a joke when you are spearing.

Good for you ...& your friend:king . [I had to read that twice, I thought it said you French kissed your buddy first time!].

A dive instructor pal suggested I switch from a Marseille buckle to a more secure snake-belt style buckle, after loosing my weight belt recently. I was quite surprised as he is very safety conscious. Personally, I would rather loose the belt than risk the lives of myself and my companions.

[For the record, the belt was probably knocked undone crossing a wide, hidden rock barrier in a swell...having just fitted 4 new scuba weights (I had been unable to find the better, closer-fitting, in-line freediver, Old Man Dave bullet or Rob Allen-style D-weights) the belt had become much shorter -- apparently a common contributing factor for weight belts releasing.]

 

[portinfer]

Roland - we tried it on Saturday - it wasn't planned but it turned out that there were no fish around so we went out for some deeper dives.

We had weighted outrselves for about 6m for shallow water fishing and then swam out into the bay at 13m.

We had a line and a float with a weight at the bottom - this ended at 10m. But the visibility was exceptional (for here) and it was crystal to 13m - we were going to head further out as I was keen to try some dives at 16m (which I believe is the starting level for aida level one certification) but it was rough further out and we were happy at 13m anyway.

So I dropped down and noticed that after about 8m you really dropped quite fast. We had 7mm jackets and 5mm trousers that I guess were compressing a fair bit. Anyway, at the bottom we were over hard rippling sand and like I say it was crystal clear so it was a good time to observe the other diver (one up one down).

Felt pretty heavy down there and the kick off the bottom was hard for the first few kicks. We didn't try any rescuing but probably should have done. I am not sure how easy it would have been to get back to the bottom with a 7mm/5mm and no weight belt ? Any ideas anyone ? (ie practice rescue : one goes down and the other follows shortly and attempts to rescue them, ditching both belts and do a complete simulation rescue as described in previous posts).

Anyway the guy I dived with hadn't dived to that depth before and it was good to spot him - could easily see our mistakes when facing the line too. Too much of the classic response to look at the seabed and arch the back and not be hydrodynamic... So a good dive and some useful things learnt.

Will have to try a simulated rescue next time and make sure those I dive with regularly know what to do on these deeper dives.

Ed

 

[land shark]

I am not sure how easy it would have been to get back to the bottom with a 7mm/5mm and no weight belt ? Any ideas anyone ? (ie practice rescue : one goes down and the other follows shortly and attempts to rescue them, ditching both belts and do a complete simulation rescue as described in previous posts).

Thats why you carry two anchors. Just ride the second anchor down for the belt then pull it up.

 

[DeepThought]

If there is some current you can go down afterwards to take your weightbelt and discover it isn't there (or actually that you are someplace else).
Maybe you can tie a line between them and your float just for this practice.

 

[Bill Adkins]

I dont remember exactly but I think it was in my DM training here in So Cal but we did have to master a decent in wet suit without any weight. It was a basic jack knife scenerio head down and raising the legs completely vertical out of the water to create as much weight as possible. You will sink and when your fins hit the water its all about the kick to start the decent. With maybe 20 feet your suit will be compressing and its all down from there. As far as rescue procedures I would aquire the victim from behind allowing me to control the airway with one hand and lose the weights simply with the other if the belt is attached with the normal release. A weight belt is the cheepest piece of dive gear to aquire and many treat them like gold. A number of yrs ago I was at a Dive N Surf parking lot sale looking at some weights and one of the Meistral brothers advised me not to get to attached to my weights because I would probably need to replace them more than once, he was correct. Just a thought.
Bill

 

[land shark]

hey Sara ?? How many years did Alison dive with the same weights??? like 20??

 

[island_sands]

hey Sara ?? How many years did Alison dive with the same weights??? like 20??

what do you mean?

 

[naiad]

It's here.