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Ratios between Freediving Disciplines

Thread Status: Hello , There was no answer in this thread for more than 60 days.
It can take a long time to get an up-to-date response or contact with relevant users.

couta

New Member
Feb 5, 2004
8
2
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For a while now I have been trying to ascertain whether their exists some kind of statistically normal correlation between ones best static, dynamic with fins, constant weight no fins (depth) and times and distances.

For example, if one’s best static time is four minutes, can one reasonably predict that you are then capable of doing four lengths (of a 25m pool) dynamic with fins, have the potential to dive to forty meters in the constant weight discipline, and dive to say 30 meters with No Fins

Hence a ratio of 4:4:4:3 assuming units of minutes, number of 25m lengths, increments of 10 meters, increments of 10 meters

Until recently this ratio held for me, until some good gains in my No Fins PB (40m) failed to translate into gains in my dynamic with fins PB (4 lengths, 100m) and my Constant Weight PB (45m). I'm not quite sure why, suspect its primarily pschological, but I'm clearly keen on getting the "ratio" back on track.

It would be interesting to see ratios for others and do some statistical analysis on the relationships. Anyone keen to contribute their ratios? Write in the following order, using normal units of measurment:

Static PB (in Minutes and Seconds), Dynamic With Fins PB (Meters), Constant Weight (Meters), No Fins (Meters)

I assume that the points system must work on some assumptions of these ratios. Does anyone know what they are?

Later
 
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DeepThought

Freediving Sloth
Sep 8, 2002
2,334
410
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Sorry, but I think that a ratio system cannot be accurate enough to be worth messing with.
For example: your gain in CNF could be only due to technique improved, and thus won't affect anything in your other records.
Other example: one person has a really slow metabolic rate, good at relaxing and such, and therfore pretty good in static. that same person can have low co2 tolerance, not such a good techinque, which will lead to bad dynamic abilites (all other 3 diciplines). one person also can also have problems equalising after a certain depth or withstanding pressure without training his lungs to negative pressure.
there is also the glide motive that can affect the opposite on CW and unassisted to the other side.
to sum it up, I think that if you're 90%-100% efficient in all catagories, maybe you could make a ratio system that works, but even then, mostly just for yourself. and even then, change of your fins/mask/mono will change CW and dynamic, but not unassisted and static.
That's my opinion.
I can't help you with giving you my nubmers, since they don't really show what I can do at the moment and I don't even have all the numbers you've asked :). (and they are still are pretty far from your ratio anyway).

nice thought, it would be interesting to see if there is some rough correlation anyway.
 

couta

New Member
Feb 5, 2004
8
2
0
52
I'm still convinced that there will be a meaningful correlation, but without the data its impossible to argue either way.

Anyway, no-ones biting, so I guess they all think its a poor idea as well! Thanks for the feedback - I'll put that theory on ice for a while...

Later
 

bevan dewar

Well-Known Member
Sep 26, 2001
154
36
118
46
couta, you know mine already:)

I would also be intersted in these stats as I have often wondered how AIDA came to decide on the cw vs static vs dynamic points equivalency.
I think only figures from people who have pushed each disciple to there max would be telling. ie if you have only given cnf or dnf a half-hearted go then rather not post or indicate something to that effect.
The best method would be to go through the AIDA archives and crunch some numbers. It will typically be the competitive divers who have explored their limits in these various disciples, though there wont be anything to do with no-fins to be found there.

It would be nice if there was a golden ratio, because then(maybe in the distant future hopefully) there might be a competition where one could ellect to either dive with fins,without fins, or go free-immersion, and performances could be measured one against the other. eg 1.6 points/meter for cnf; 1 point/meter for cw; and 0.9 points/meter for F.I, or something like that. Seems as feasable to me as saying one guys 7:00 static is as good as another guys 70m dive(or however it's scored now).
Any hope of this in the future? seems a better idea than hosting an only cnf competition, which i heard some mention about. Wouldnt mind a pure cnf contest, but I doubt there would be enough takers just yet to make it feasable?
bevan
 

efattah

Well-Known Member
Mar 2, 2001
3,294
487
173
For those who weren't around, some years ago I posted a correlation between dynamic apnea and constant weight:

Dynamic apnea [m] = ( [4/3] * CW ) + 22

This was based on assumptions about the duration of the sinking phase, etc., and also made assumptions on basal metabolic rate. It held very accurately for me. Of course, it assumes the diver has no problems equalizing etc...


Eric Fattah
BC, Canada
 

Bill

Baron of Breathold
Oct 17, 2001
1,805
332
188
81
Eric's formulae works for me, but I don't see any correlation between static and constant. Hard to believe that AIDA awards the same points to a 60M dive and a 5 min. static.
It also looks like FREE Immersion=(4/3) * CW if equalization isn't a problem.
Aloha
Bill
 

bevan dewar

Well-Known Member
Sep 26, 2001
154
36
118
46
I remebered your formula Eric just as I finished posting my reply. I dont think it does hold for myself, but when I think about it couta, I dont think either of us know our figures. The last time I had a chance to test myself as far as depth goes was many moons ago, and at that time I had never done a dynamic. Now I would say I could guess my dynamic figures but have no idea of depth capabilities as I/we as limited to 45m in our dam here. So I think only the most experienced divers could give meaningfull figures.
bevan
p.s i shure hope your formula works eric:)
 

DeepThought

Freediving Sloth
Sep 8, 2002
2,334
410
173
42
Well, here's a database that you can play with it's figures.
http://www.freedivingspots.net/diverlist.php?&orderBy=div_PBCW+DESC

it is sorted by CW, just press any other dicipline to get it sorted by other catagory.
Credits go to jvoets.

By the way, I forgot to mention that water temp can also make a difference. :) (changes metabolisem and MDR and mental feeling)
I agree there should be a range, but my thought is that it'll be too wide to be beneficial, someting in the sort of 5minutes static = 35-55 in cw.

tell me if you get anything from the list.
getting results from competitive divers might get better correlation. and even then, the amount of effort spent by one diver on his/her top catagory might be double from the amount of time she/he spent traning all the rest (ot the other way around if working on the weak spots).

Keep us updated if you find something.
 

Will

Freediver
Jun 20, 2003
556
151
133
40
I once tried graphing results of dynamic versus constant for competitive apneists. No visible linear relationship.

Using
Dynamic apnea [m] = ( [4/3] * CW ) + 22
Stig should have been able to dive to 108 m without fins and Stefane is set for 140 m CW. Maybe they have this potential but it sure isn't being manifested.
Pelo holds that 1' static ~ 10m CW ~ 23m dynamic and this works for some...
 

subaquaticus

Fond of the Red Sea
Oct 10, 2004
557
11
108
61
couta said:
For a while now I have been trying to ascertain whether their exists some kind of statistically normal correlation between ones best static, dynamic with fins, constant weight no fins (depth) and times and distances.

For example, if one’s best static time is four minutes, can one reasonably predict that you are then capable of doing four lengths (of a 25m pool) dynamic with fins, have the potential to dive to forty meters in the constant weight discipline, and dive to say 30 meters with No Fins

Hence a ratio of 4:4:4:3 assuming units of minutes, number of 25m lengths, increments of 10 meters, increments of 10 meters

Until recently this ratio held for me, until some good gains in my No Fins PB (40m) failed to translate into gains in my dynamic with fins PB (4 lengths, 100m) and my Constant Weight PB (45m). I'm not quite sure why, suspect its primarily pschological, but I'm clearly keen on getting the "ratio" back on track.

It would be interesting to see ratios for others and do some statistical analysis on the relationships. Anyone keen to contribute their ratios? Write in the following order, using normal units of measurment:

Static PB (in Minutes and Seconds), Dynamic With Fins PB (Meters), Constant Weight (Meters), No Fins (Meters)

I assume that the points system must work on some assumptions of these ratios. Does anyone know what they are?
Later

You asked a very interesting question ; I also tried to find out some "equivalences" between different freediving disciplines...

I simply use a "performance index" which is the ratio : time (or meters) done divided by the world record in the corresponding category...
 

subaquaticus

Fond of the Red Sea
Oct 10, 2004
557
11
108
61
couta said:
For example, if one’s best static time is four minutes, can one reasonably predict that you are then capable of doing four lengths (of a 25m pool) dynamic with fins, have the potential to dive to forty meters in the constant weight discipline, and dive to say 30 meters with No Fins

Hence a ratio of 4:4:4:3 assuming units of minutes, number of 25m lengths, increments of 10 meters, increments of 10 meters

Until recently this ratio held for me, until some good gains in my No Fins PB (40m) failed to translate into gains in my dynamic with fins PB (4 lengths, 100m) and my Constant Weight PB (45m). I'm not quite sure why, suspect its primarily pschological, but I'm clearly keen on getting the "ratio" back on track.

It would be interesting to see ratios for others and do some statistical analysis on the relationships. Anyone keen to contribute their ratios? Write in the following order, using normal units of measurment:

Static PB (in Minutes and Seconds), Dynamic With Fins PB (Meters), Constant Weight (Meters), No Fins (Meters)

I assume that the points system must work on some assumptions of these ratios. Does anyone know what they are?

Later
Let's use the Performance Index Method...

your STA = 4'00", which corresponds to a performance index of k(STA) = 4'00"/8'58" = 0.446...

your corresponding PB in CWT should be then : CWT = 103 m X 4'00"/8'58" = 45.9 m !!! this exactly your actual PB in CWT, isn't it ?

your theoretical PB in CNF should be : CWT = 80 m (recent WR by Stepanek)X 4'00"/8'58" = 35.7 m.... then your PB 40 m in CNF is slightly better than your static PB should have told...

your PB in DYN is 100 m, which gives k(DYN) = 100 m/200 m = 0.500...

your PB in CNF is k(CNF) = 40 m/80 m = 0.500....

Conclusions :

1. you have the same k = 0.500 for DYN and CNF...

2. you have a smaller k = 0.446 for STA and CWT...

one can conclude from all this that :

1. you must have a powerful breaststroke...

2. you should be able to increase your PB in STA...

3. you are probably limited by your compensation in CWT... then you should accustom yourself to depth...
 
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