-
Welcome to the DeeperBlue.com Forums, the largest online community dedicated to Freediving, Scuba Diving and Spearfishing. To gain full access to the DeeperBlue.com Forums you must register for a free account. As a registered member you will be able to:
- Join over 44,280+ fellow diving enthusiasts from around the world on this forum
- Participate in and browse from over 516,210+ posts.
- Communicate privately with other divers from around the world.
- Post your own photos or view from 7,441+ user submitted images.
- All this and much more...
You can gain access to all this absolutely free when you register for an account, so sign up today!
Records
- Thread starterkingohyes
- Start date
Thread Status: Hello
, There was no answer in this thread for more than 60 days.
It can take a long time to get an up-to-date response or contact with relevant users.
It can take a long time to get an up-to-date response or contact with relevant users.
no, didnt film that. I could, but I dont have a website to host it. Though our South African freediving site said they would put up a video of a 150m dnf done last week, so maybe I can slip that in(being editor) will let you know if and when it's up.
I dont think I'm doing anything special, not even using the dolphin flick after the frog king(which I do use in cnf). try the same weighting as me and see what happens. also use a swim cap and if youre prepared to, shave down. also be very conscious of looking directly down. looking even 2 feet ahead will lift the head out of it's ideal possition.
I dont think I'm doing anything special, not even using the dolphin flick after the frog king(which I do use in cnf). try the same weighting as me and see what happens. also use a swim cap and if youre prepared to, shave down. also be very conscious of looking directly down. looking even 2 feet ahead will lift the head out of it's ideal possition.
hi
Ok... You say you are not doing anything especial? and that you are even using the dolphin kick after the frog kick ?
for me my 4 strokes makes me hard to do it...
it will be good if you put that video int that website .. to see it
saludos
Daniel..
Ok... You say you are not doing anything especial? and that you are even using the dolphin kick after the frog kick ?
for me my 4 strokes makes me hard to do it...
it will be good if you put that video int that website .. to see it
saludos
Daniel..
I'll second Daniels post, a video would be very interesting to see.
I am still working on the stroke thing and am beginning to appreciate the finer details in the matter. Videos are still worth gold though.
I am also curious, how far do you get from the wall push? What can be done to improve that?
And please tell me how much time you guys need for a lap. Just to see what pace you tend to keep.
This is what I have gathered so far:
Bevan Dewar clocks in at 28 seconds a lap in a 150m dnf. David Lee did a lap in as little as 21 seconds and another in I think about 23 seconds (both are available as videos for download, see earlier posts in this thread). Rat Cunning once sprinted across in about 12 seconds (then he learned better techniques, which I have tried to emulate). Most times I tend to need about 35 seconds or else I feel my heartbeat is racing away (if I go faster than 35 sec).
Is there such a thing as optimal pace, that will suit almost everyone? To summarise: Laptimes please... and how far do you get from the push?
Thanks.
I am still working on the stroke thing and am beginning to appreciate the finer details in the matter. Videos are still worth gold though.
I am also curious, how far do you get from the wall push? What can be done to improve that?
And please tell me how much time you guys need for a lap. Just to see what pace you tend to keep.
This is what I have gathered so far:
Bevan Dewar clocks in at 28 seconds a lap in a 150m dnf. David Lee did a lap in as little as 21 seconds and another in I think about 23 seconds (both are available as videos for download, see earlier posts in this thread). Rat Cunning once sprinted across in about 12 seconds (then he learned better techniques, which I have tried to emulate). Most times I tend to need about 35 seconds or else I feel my heartbeat is racing away (if I go faster than 35 sec).
Is there such a thing as optimal pace, that will suit almost everyone? To summarise: Laptimes please... and how far do you get from the push?
Thanks.
hi tommy. i took the video camera to the pool yesterday to try film 25 in 2 strokes, but managed only about 23&1/2m. it was a diferent pool, 25x50m so i was swiming widths with swimmers swimming above me. i think the tubulence cost me 1&1/2m.
anyway, looking at the footage today after i saw your post i can tell you that it takes me about 33 seconds for 25m, the push+glide and the kick+glide both taking about 7 seconds, and the arm pull+glides taking about 9 seconds on average. cant tell distances from the video but could measure next time.
looking at the 150 video i see i take 30 seconds for the fist 5 lenths but only 23 seconds for the last lenths.
videos of other peoples techniques are a good way to learn i recon, but i think its just as impotant to try get yourself filmed. kicking technique can proove itself easily by measuring stroke lenth, but to check that streamlining is 100% it helps to have it on video, or have a critical buddy
one thing i picked up from swimming textbooks is the theory of changing the direction the hand moves though the propulsive phase of the pull. most people do it intuitively but i found the theory interesting, not something i was consciously aware of: that a hand pushing water in a strait line will become embeded in a column of moving water that the hand has given backwards momentum to. the hand would have to move at ever increasing speeds(accelerate) through this water to provide a constant propulsive force. but by moving the hands in an S-shaped motion you move them out of this moving water into stationary boddies of water where there is more to 'push agaist', so to speak. swimmers use rounded S-shape movements, but i seem to use a sharper almost a Z-shaped movement with a quick flick of the palms to the thighs at the end.
bevan
anyway, looking at the footage today after i saw your post i can tell you that it takes me about 33 seconds for 25m, the push+glide and the kick+glide both taking about 7 seconds, and the arm pull+glides taking about 9 seconds on average. cant tell distances from the video but could measure next time.
looking at the 150 video i see i take 30 seconds for the fist 5 lenths but only 23 seconds for the last lenths.
videos of other peoples techniques are a good way to learn i recon, but i think its just as impotant to try get yourself filmed. kicking technique can proove itself easily by measuring stroke lenth, but to check that streamlining is 100% it helps to have it on video, or have a critical buddy
one thing i picked up from swimming textbooks is the theory of changing the direction the hand moves though the propulsive phase of the pull. most people do it intuitively but i found the theory interesting, not something i was consciously aware of: that a hand pushing water in a strait line will become embeded in a column of moving water that the hand has given backwards momentum to. the hand would have to move at ever increasing speeds(accelerate) through this water to provide a constant propulsive force. but by moving the hands in an S-shaped motion you move them out of this moving water into stationary boddies of water where there is more to 'push agaist', so to speak. swimmers use rounded S-shape movements, but i seem to use a sharper almost a Z-shaped movement with a quick flick of the palms to the thighs at the end.
bevan
push off the wall
good push off the wall creates more speed that does swimming. As you
leave the wall you are at your fastest.
there is a natural and understandable anxiety to "get going". But
efforts to swim too soon actually slow you down. and premature
swimming also wastes valuable energy. The right time to start
swimming is when the speed generated by the powerful drive off the
wall slows down......It take judgment to know the rigth moment to
start swimming . It also take practice and patience.
The full pull under water is the most powerful stroke of the race.
at finish of the stroke streamlining is maintaned. Because of the
great speed generated by a powerful push off the wall. a gliding
position is held longer than the regular glide of normal swimming.
arms are at the side and the legs are straight.
An important first step is to get the clearest possible mental image
of the push off of the wall...then keep working to perfect it. Even
when your turn seems satisfactory, don't take it for granted. Keep
working at it. A qualified observer is always helpful, and your own
cach is your best observer,
saludos
good push off the wall creates more speed that does swimming. As you
leave the wall you are at your fastest.
there is a natural and understandable anxiety to "get going". But
efforts to swim too soon actually slow you down. and premature
swimming also wastes valuable energy. The right time to start
swimming is when the speed generated by the powerful drive off the
wall slows down......It take judgment to know the rigth moment to
start swimming . It also take practice and patience.
The full pull under water is the most powerful stroke of the race.
at finish of the stroke streamlining is maintaned. Because of the
great speed generated by a powerful push off the wall. a gliding
position is held longer than the regular glide of normal swimming.
arms are at the side and the legs are straight.
An important first step is to get the clearest possible mental image
of the push off of the wall...then keep working to perfect it. Even
when your turn seems satisfactory, don't take it for granted. Keep
working at it. A qualified observer is always helpful, and your own
cach is your best observer,
saludos
Hi
hi tommy. i took the video camera to the pool yesterday to try film 25 in 2 strokes, but managed only about 23&1/2m. it was a diferent pool, 25x50m so i was swiming widths with swimmers swimming above me. i think the tubulence cost me 1&1/2m.
____________________-----
Don't worry Bevan that happen to me last sadurday but in this case with my underwater camara I give it to some body to take me some pictures,,,,,and when I going to the store PARA REVELARLAS .I was not in the pictures ..I don't know exacly what that guy FOTOGRAFIO ..... but LO MAS TRISTE is that I spend my money.....
I wait for your video.. so take your time
Daniel...
hi tommy. i took the video camera to the pool yesterday to try film 25 in 2 strokes, but managed only about 23&1/2m. it was a diferent pool, 25x50m so i was swiming widths with swimmers swimming above me. i think the tubulence cost me 1&1/2m.
____________________-----
Don't worry Bevan that happen to me last sadurday but in this case with my underwater camara I give it to some body to take me some pictures,,,,,and when I going to the store PARA REVELARLAS .I was not in the pictures ..I don't know exacly what that guy FOTOGRAFIO ..... but LO MAS TRISTE is that I spend my money.....
I wait for your video.. so take your time
Daniel...
Last edited:
Bevan,
Thanks for interesting reply.
I too, recently read about the S-move in a book. Funny how every little detail makes a difference... You can never be too perfect it seems. I also downloaded a video of David Lee doing an unassisted record to ..uh.. some 47 meters or something. He too was doing the S-move. Maybe a whole bunch of freedivers do that? I have never seen much (any) discussion about it in the forums, but maybe it's one of those things everyone knows about so it never gets mentioned.
And yes, you are right Daniel, perfection sure takes practice!
Thanks for interesting reply.
I too, recently read about the S-move in a book. Funny how every little detail makes a difference... You can never be too perfect it seems. I also downloaded a video of David Lee doing an unassisted record to ..uh.. some 47 meters or something. He too was doing the S-move. Maybe a whole bunch of freedivers do that? I have never seen much (any) discussion about it in the forums, but maybe it's one of those things everyone knows about so it never gets mentioned.
And yes, you are right Daniel, perfection sure takes practice!
Last edited:
fine tuning
Regarding DNF (unassisted) I feel like I should impart some of my own secrets before asking others to share theirs. In particular I am working on the turn, which is such a delicate part of technique, especially in a 25 m pool. The method I am currently using is outlined below – I would welcome any comments or advice.
1. Do not look up as you approach the wall – use the lane markers as a guide.
2. Try to work towards reaching the wall after a leg push, but before the armstroke (ie the arms are still extended).
3. Place one hand on the wall (thumb pointing down) and the other on the bottom (fingers facing wall) at about 40 cm from the wall.
4. Let your momentum fold your legs into your body (decreasing rotational inertia so as to save energy in the turn).
5. Turn towards the side of the bottom hand (i.e. if you put your left hand on the bottom turn towards the left). The torque for the turn is provided by the hand on the wall, while the hand on the bottom acts as a pivot.
6. As you turn place the balls and toes of your feet on the wall. The hand that was on the bottom comes up in front of you, while the hand that was on the wall performs a normal recovery up the line of the body.
7. The leg push should be similar to the leg push of a rower, where the main principle is to accelerate the legs during the push.
If you reach the wall with a little kinetic energy (momentum) then you can convert this into rotational energy. If you stop just before the wall then you will have to create rotational energy from scratch using the hands.
What I want to know is:
- Is it more efficient to allow the glide to come to a complete halt before starting the catch, or should the hands start moving whilst there is still forwards momentum?
- I push off and glide with the palms of my hands facing each other – I have tried the traditional monofin hand position (hands on top of each other, fingers interlocked) but find the rewards in hydrodynamics are outweighed by a detriment to relaxation. What do you find works best?
- Has anyone been able to open the video of Stig’s 166 DNF? You can download it at www.danskfridykkerforbund.dk but even after getting the codec I can’t play anything more than the sound.
Regarding DNF (unassisted) I feel like I should impart some of my own secrets before asking others to share theirs. In particular I am working on the turn, which is such a delicate part of technique, especially in a 25 m pool. The method I am currently using is outlined below – I would welcome any comments or advice.
1. Do not look up as you approach the wall – use the lane markers as a guide.
2. Try to work towards reaching the wall after a leg push, but before the armstroke (ie the arms are still extended).
3. Place one hand on the wall (thumb pointing down) and the other on the bottom (fingers facing wall) at about 40 cm from the wall.
4. Let your momentum fold your legs into your body (decreasing rotational inertia so as to save energy in the turn).
5. Turn towards the side of the bottom hand (i.e. if you put your left hand on the bottom turn towards the left). The torque for the turn is provided by the hand on the wall, while the hand on the bottom acts as a pivot.
6. As you turn place the balls and toes of your feet on the wall. The hand that was on the bottom comes up in front of you, while the hand that was on the wall performs a normal recovery up the line of the body.
7. The leg push should be similar to the leg push of a rower, where the main principle is to accelerate the legs during the push.
If you reach the wall with a little kinetic energy (momentum) then you can convert this into rotational energy. If you stop just before the wall then you will have to create rotational energy from scratch using the hands.
What I want to know is:
- Is it more efficient to allow the glide to come to a complete halt before starting the catch, or should the hands start moving whilst there is still forwards momentum?
- I push off and glide with the palms of my hands facing each other – I have tried the traditional monofin hand position (hands on top of each other, fingers interlocked) but find the rewards in hydrodynamics are outweighed by a detriment to relaxation. What do you find works best?
- Has anyone been able to open the video of Stig’s 166 DNF? You can download it at www.danskfridykkerforbund.dk but even after getting the codec I can’t play anything more than the sound.
Will,
I am also trying to figure out the most efficient turn. It does make for some pondering. The video you mention in your post shows Stig doing several turns in a 25m pool. It is well worth looking at, even though the quality and camera angles aren't the best (for the turn). Without going into details, it seems best to use the momentum you have approaching the turn, and then make the direction change one smooth movement (like you said). Not that I can say I have mastered that myself, but looking at the video, and other videos as well, it seems to be the way to go.
Regarding the sound but no picture:
I had the same problem in another thread. It can be fixed by downloading a codec pack. Check out the Worst static blackout ever seen !!! thread in General Freediving.
I am also trying to figure out the most efficient turn. It does make for some pondering. The video you mention in your post shows Stig doing several turns in a 25m pool. It is well worth looking at, even though the quality and camera angles aren't the best (for the turn). Without going into details, it seems best to use the momentum you have approaching the turn, and then make the direction change one smooth movement (like you said). Not that I can say I have mastered that myself, but looking at the video, and other videos as well, it seems to be the way to go.
Regarding the sound but no picture:
I had the same problem in another thread. It can be fixed by downloading a codec pack. Check out the Worst static blackout ever seen !!! thread in General Freediving.
Tommy, did a check and seems I cover exactly half the length (12.5m)on the push. That with comming to a complete stop and letting my body right itself, and measuring where my feet come to rest. How do you compare?
Will, your technique seems similar to mine, though I'd never really attached much importance to the turn. But one thing I do now think is that it might be a good idea to pause for a second after planting the feet on the wall, just to make shure that the arms are locked dead ahead and that the push will not be unbalanced. I found that if I turn and push in a hurry without checking my form first, I tend to loose a few meters on the push/glide.
And I agree that it is ideal to make it to the wall at the end of the glide and not come up a meter short, but for myself this would be impossible to time correctly, except maybe for the first lenth or two, because my stroke rate per lenth is not constant(it seems to steadily increase). Maybe I should practice just 2 speeds: slow with exactly 4 strokes per length for the first half, then fast with 6-8 strokes for the second half??
Bevan
Will, your technique seems similar to mine, though I'd never really attached much importance to the turn. But one thing I do now think is that it might be a good idea to pause for a second after planting the feet on the wall, just to make shure that the arms are locked dead ahead and that the push will not be unbalanced. I found that if I turn and push in a hurry without checking my form first, I tend to loose a few meters on the push/glide.
And I agree that it is ideal to make it to the wall at the end of the glide and not come up a meter short, but for myself this would be impossible to time correctly, except maybe for the first lenth or two, because my stroke rate per lenth is not constant(it seems to steadily increase). Maybe I should practice just 2 speeds: slow with exactly 4 strokes per length for the first half, then fast with 6-8 strokes for the second half??
Bevan
Interesting stuff about stroke rate and speed. I have been doing a few experiments with this myself. With no weight I can do 25m in 3.5 - 4 full strokes but this for me seems to take more physical effort than 5 strokes in a more relaxed style. When doing this use about half full lungs to achieve neutral buoyancy. I need to get a decent neck weight sorted.
I just weighed the weight I have been using which I thought was ideal and it was less than 1kg. It seems like I should try a lot more than this? The pool I swim in is a constant 2m depth.
Bevan - I was wondering if you are wearing any wetsuit when you use upwards of 4kg this seems like a lot of weight to me?
In the 50m pool it takes me about 10 strokes and between 25 and 35s. I am still experimenting with which pace is more efficient. When Ive got someone thare to spot me Ill try pushing it.
Id be very interested to hear how people warm up for a max dynamic attempt. I have not tried a max yet but think my warm up will consist of a few laps easy surface swimming followed by a breath up and three or four empty lung statics on the bottom.
Matt
I just weighed the weight I have been using which I thought was ideal and it was less than 1kg. It seems like I should try a lot more than this? The pool I swim in is a constant 2m depth.
Bevan - I was wondering if you are wearing any wetsuit when you use upwards of 4kg this seems like a lot of weight to me?
In the 50m pool it takes me about 10 strokes and between 25 and 35s. I am still experimenting with which pace is more efficient. When Ive got someone thare to spot me Ill try pushing it.
Id be very interested to hear how people warm up for a max dynamic attempt. I have not tried a max yet but think my warm up will consist of a few laps easy surface swimming followed by a breath up and three or four empty lung statics on the bottom.
Matt
Bevan, is that 12.5 meters just from the push, or push + first stroke? For 25m in 3 strokes I work at 11 + 7 + 7 and for a 50m pool in 7 strokes it is 11 + (6 x 6.5). I think I gone further on the push but I need to take off my mask (I wear the minima in training as I hate noseclips, and it floods with too big a push).
I hate turning (prefer dynamics in a 50m pool and would love to try that 135m pool in Vancouver) so I try not to let the turn interrupt my rhythm. For this reason I have eliminated the pause before the push.
For a max I try and use the calves as much as possible for the push. They are a smaller muscle (use less O2) but can still generate a great deal of force. So I don’t bend at the knees completely, and only my toes are against the wall. Do you plant the whole sole of your foot?
I am very surprised that you ramp up to 6-8 strokes at the end of a max attempt. Pelizzari always advises keeping exactly the same pace throughout, but then dynamic wasn’t exactly his forte. I guess towards the end muscles are anaerobic, and it becomes kind of a race against time – to swim as far as possible before the brain uses up its oxygen. But 6-8 strokes! How many strokes did you use for the 150m DNF?
Also, rather than using an exact number of strokes I find it is better to finish on a leg push, with arms extended. 2 reasons:
- you don’t have to worry about cracking your head at the end of the lap.
- your hands find their positions and the arms fold underneath naturally.
P.S. Matt are you sure your 50m time is 25 - 35 s? WR 50m breaststroke is ~30 seconds...
I hate turning (prefer dynamics in a 50m pool and would love to try that 135m pool in Vancouver) so I try not to let the turn interrupt my rhythm. For this reason I have eliminated the pause before the push.
For a max I try and use the calves as much as possible for the push. They are a smaller muscle (use less O2) but can still generate a great deal of force. So I don’t bend at the knees completely, and only my toes are against the wall. Do you plant the whole sole of your foot?
I am very surprised that you ramp up to 6-8 strokes at the end of a max attempt. Pelizzari always advises keeping exactly the same pace throughout, but then dynamic wasn’t exactly his forte. I guess towards the end muscles are anaerobic, and it becomes kind of a race against time – to swim as far as possible before the brain uses up its oxygen. But 6-8 strokes! How many strokes did you use for the 150m DNF?
Also, rather than using an exact number of strokes I find it is better to finish on a leg push, with arms extended. 2 reasons:
- you don’t have to worry about cracking your head at the end of the lap.
- your hands find their positions and the arms fold underneath naturally.
P.S. Matt are you sure your 50m time is 25 - 35 s? WR 50m breaststroke is ~30 seconds...
Matt for your warm-up you might want to try just doing the negative statics. Seb Murat advocates starting dynamics with completely cold muscles. (However he also recommends static training after dynamic...)
I don't do max attempts in dynamic so I wouldn't know, but the best warmup for CW is negative hangs. Some people do FI dives as warm-ups, but this is only because they won't be using their arm muscles for the CW dive.
I don't do max attempts in dynamic so I wouldn't know, but the best warmup for CW is negative hangs. Some people do FI dives as warm-ups, but this is only because they won't be using their arm muscles for the CW dive.
howzit matt, good to hear from you again. no, no wetsuit. takes 4.7kg to get neutral with packing.
Will, the 12m was just the push, no arms involved. I'm surprised you dont like the turns, i always felt dnf to be easier in a 25m pool(though i havent tried it in a 50).
i seem to bend my knees quite a bit but also start with feet flat on the wall so as to get a flick of speed from the calves.
stroke wise its about 4/4/4/5/6/8. I'm no expert, this is the only big dnf i've tried, but it just feels natural to speed up during the contractions as one starts to work more and more anaerobically. i do the same for dynamics with mono.
i'm using a warmup similar to statics, ie 3 or 4 statics, and have sometimes made use of the adjacent 5m pool for empty lungs. recon it's worth doing e.l (with reverse packs) even in a 2 meter pool, though havent tried it yet. no swimming about.
Matt, or anyone else, i can send you an instructional.doc on the neckweights i've made if you like. email me at bevandewar@hotmail.com
chow
bevan
p.s will, where'd you pick up the seb murat tips? any more tips from the master you could throw our way?
Will, the 12m was just the push, no arms involved. I'm surprised you dont like the turns, i always felt dnf to be easier in a 25m pool(though i havent tried it in a 50).
i seem to bend my knees quite a bit but also start with feet flat on the wall so as to get a flick of speed from the calves.
stroke wise its about 4/4/4/5/6/8. I'm no expert, this is the only big dnf i've tried, but it just feels natural to speed up during the contractions as one starts to work more and more anaerobically. i do the same for dynamics with mono.
i'm using a warmup similar to statics, ie 3 or 4 statics, and have sometimes made use of the adjacent 5m pool for empty lungs. recon it's worth doing e.l (with reverse packs) even in a 2 meter pool, though havent tried it yet. no swimming about.
Matt, or anyone else, i can send you an instructional.doc on the neckweights i've made if you like. email me at bevandewar@hotmail.com
chow
bevan
p.s will, where'd you pick up the seb murat tips? any more tips from the master you could throw our way?
hi
Matt for your warm-up you might want to try just doing the negative statics. Seb Murat advocates
starting dynamics with completely cold muscles. (However he also recommends static trainin
_________________________________
What is the main porpuse to warm-up doind negativee static and what good does it make to the body before doing the dynamic ??
I prefere when doing dynamic not fin in long distance not combine this with dolphin kick
just the frog -- I don't know but I think when I do dolphin kick I spending more oxigen,,,and I moving my STOMAGO - so I want to try to avoid this,,I least for long distance
Matt for your warm-up you might want to try just doing the negative statics. Seb Murat advocates
starting dynamics with completely cold muscles. (However he also recommends static trainin
_________________________________
What is the main porpuse to warm-up doind negativee static and what good does it make to the body before doing the dynamic ??
I prefere when doing dynamic not fin in long distance not combine this with dolphin kick
just the frog -- I don't know but I think when I do dolphin kick I spending more oxigen,,,and I moving my STOMAGO - so I want to try to avoid this,,I least for long distance
Last edited:
Negative pressure dives (among other things) cause splenic contraction which increases blood O2 storage.
Bevan, when did you start getting contractions in that 150m? Usually when I start getting them I have about another length before I run the risk of blacking out. Annoying, as I always feel like I have more in me...
By the way, 150m is huge - 2nd biggest DNF I've heard of. If you're 'no expert' then that only leaves Stig...
Bevan, when did you start getting contractions in that 150m? Usually when I start getting them I have about another length before I run the risk of blacking out. Annoying, as I always feel like I have more in me...
By the way, 150m is huge - 2nd biggest DNF I've heard of. If you're 'no expert' then that only leaves Stig...
Will, no idea about the contractions. With statics, apnea walks and dives i get them about half way so proberbly the same with dynamic.
Off to the redsea tomorrow for 7 months of R&R. hope i can find a computer there to keep up the with the discussion.
safe swimming
bevan
Off to the redsea tomorrow for 7 months of R&R. hope i can find a computer there to keep up the with the discussion.
safe swimming
bevan