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Rescue Question
- Thread starter blueface
- Start date
Thread Status: Hello
, There was no answer in this thread for more than 90 days.
It can take a long time to get an up-to-date response or contact with relevant users.
It can take a long time to get an up-to-date response or contact with relevant users.
I have to say that practice is the best thing to focus on. As a rescuer (or if you dive with others and aren't sure how they could react), you're far more likely to be calm if you have had the experience many times.
Your instincts will take over and any struggle will strip away any attempts to be calm!
For example, if you've never tried a rescue and you're wearing a monofin, you'll be unpleasantly surprised at how difficult it is to assist someone and protect their airway with your feet together. Trying it will probably convince you that bi-fins is the way to go in a line diving situation. But if you do dive recreationally and want to be able to assist someone, well, you should practice and debug it. It is possible, but you should know the limitations and challenges it presents.
If you are struggling with this, chances are you'll find it hard to keep your mouth above the water enough to even blow, tap, talk, or whatever.
Knowing that you've practiced different scenarios (solo rescuer, rescuing with another diver, bifins, monofins, no fins) will allow you to focus on the finer points of a rescue and stay calm throughout.
Priority #1 is airway above water and encouraging the person to wake up on their own, while at the same time moving them to a location for further action if needed.
And I agree that yelling and panicking is no good, especially in terms of the rescuer thinking clearly!
Also, I don't know that there's evidence of this, but I think there may be data on people being aware of speech and what's going on around them even while unconscious. Certainly, talking in a relaxed and encouraging voice is good for the emerging diver and the rescuer.
It is also a good idea to self-talk your way through the steps - often a common training method for lifeguards. "Okay, Peter, I'm just holding you up and blow across your face. You're safe, you can breathe. We're moving you to a safe place. People are helping you. You can breathe. Etc..."
Perfect practice makes perfect.
Pete
Your instincts will take over and any struggle will strip away any attempts to be calm!
For example, if you've never tried a rescue and you're wearing a monofin, you'll be unpleasantly surprised at how difficult it is to assist someone and protect their airway with your feet together. Trying it will probably convince you that bi-fins is the way to go in a line diving situation. But if you do dive recreationally and want to be able to assist someone, well, you should practice and debug it. It is possible, but you should know the limitations and challenges it presents.
If you are struggling with this, chances are you'll find it hard to keep your mouth above the water enough to even blow, tap, talk, or whatever.
Knowing that you've practiced different scenarios (solo rescuer, rescuing with another diver, bifins, monofins, no fins) will allow you to focus on the finer points of a rescue and stay calm throughout.
Priority #1 is airway above water and encouraging the person to wake up on their own, while at the same time moving them to a location for further action if needed.
And I agree that yelling and panicking is no good, especially in terms of the rescuer thinking clearly!
Also, I don't know that there's evidence of this, but I think there may be data on people being aware of speech and what's going on around them even while unconscious. Certainly, talking in a relaxed and encouraging voice is good for the emerging diver and the rescuer.
It is also a good idea to self-talk your way through the steps - often a common training method for lifeguards. "Okay, Peter, I'm just holding you up and blow across your face. You're safe, you can breathe. We're moving you to a safe place. People are helping you. You can breathe. Etc..."
Perfect practice makes perfect.
Pete
Cebaztian, Great paper BTW, you have given this a lot of thought. Some questions that I will place here for the threads benefit:
- how would you best unite safety divers with different backgrounds and trainings, even schools (AA/CMAS/AIDA for example) to a common standard safety procedure?
- it is interesting the over use (re your paper) of the rescue breath to aid (maybe) breaking a larygospasm. How might one prepare a bunch of safeties to not over react here? The urge to do something big and positive when seeing a spasmed diver is great.
- under what circumstances would you personally give the rescue breath "a go" to see of it worked?
- define the best rescue breath technique (you mention via the nose)
thanks
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I have never really thought about this question, my hunch would be that while the lungs are moving air in and out, the body has a few other functions to restore, and the actual gas exchange ( where the o2 is exchanged for Co2 ) takes longer to work efficiently because of the plasma that has entered the lungs on ascent - might go and research this a bit more.
Also I wouldnt say it happens with every BO - it was only something i observed in a rather serious blackout, and one that had some serious complications.
Most that I have attended have been a box of fluffies after they have come back to the land of the living.
PS - Blueface, I forgot to say " well done on your rescue!!!" no matter how you feel you handled the situation, you managed to keep the airway above the water, and that is the most important thing!!!
It's a couple of years old but here's the story. My other partner helped a great deal as well. He made it much easier to get him on the boat. When we dive deep I like to have 3 divers. One diver and two potential rescuers.
Backout Story
It was on may 11, 2006 we were diving on some sweetlips that were cruising around (really dumb) at about 90 ft. My friend whom I shall call "John" was very excited. He was not relaxed at all. He said, " Watch me! watch me!" just before he dropped to the bottom. Knowing that he was a fairly new diver I was concerned but it was too late as he was on the bottom. I watched him lay on the bottom as his gun tracked the now slightly spooked sweetlips. there were about 10 of them ranging from 12 to 20 pounds not fleeing but out of range. After quite a long wait I said to myself, " He can't do this." He was down for about 1 minute or so and then he headed up. He was very heavy with too much weight and a small barracuda strapped to his waist. Half way up He looked up and started to panic. He started to kick hard and move his arms. I readied myself and then at 14 feet he stopped and started to spasm (maybe what they call Samba) and he dropped his gun and his arms went out to the side and he began to sink as if falling backward. It was a horrible sight! I've never seen a blackout before this day. I instantly ditched my gun and blasted down and broke his descent at 24 feet. When I got him up I was yelling for my other partner who was close by. On the surface Matt (other partner) ditched our weight belts. The waves were crashing over our heads and I had a hard time getting his snorkel out (never leave your snorkel in!). The boat was about 100 ft. away. Dealing with the waves was frustrating while I was trying to keep water out of his mouth. We finally got him to the boat and he was in and out of consciousness. The rescue breathing helped but he kept wanting to sleep. I got some o2 from a near by scuba boat and it helped a lot. He would get up and say, "I'm okay! I'm okay! then fall over out cold. I wanted him to sit upright and stay awake. There was a team waiting there at the pier and they began rushing him into the chamber and I yelled, " NO! NO! He's not bent!!" He blacked out! Then they rushed him to Naval Hospital and we all went into the ER with our camo wetsuits. Everyone thought we were crazy. They put him on a breathing machine and gave him powerful Diuretics to remove fluid from his lungs. Next day they released him. His eyes had broken vessels making the whites look bloody. It was scary looking. He survived and we thanked the good Lord and celebrated. We also went over every single thing we did right or wrong and studied Blackouts and how to prevent them. It was a learning experience for all of us.
Four days later was my little girl's 6th B-day party and all the spearos watched in horror as the profile played out on John's D-3. You could hear the shock and surprise when he hit 14 feet. The total dive was 1:47 and depth was 90 ft. Not a bad profile at all but with the excitment and extra weight it was too much. We still dive with John and he is a much safer diver now. We understand better what blackout is and how to enjoy diving without being paranoid. I feel a special bond with all spearos and divers who freedive because we face a lot of the same monsters.
Thanks for Reading and please Dive safe! Never alone!!
Skip Perry
Backout Story
It was on may 11, 2006 we were diving on some sweetlips that were cruising around (really dumb) at about 90 ft. My friend whom I shall call "John" was very excited. He was not relaxed at all. He said, " Watch me! watch me!" just before he dropped to the bottom. Knowing that he was a fairly new diver I was concerned but it was too late as he was on the bottom. I watched him lay on the bottom as his gun tracked the now slightly spooked sweetlips. there were about 10 of them ranging from 12 to 20 pounds not fleeing but out of range. After quite a long wait I said to myself, " He can't do this." He was down for about 1 minute or so and then he headed up. He was very heavy with too much weight and a small barracuda strapped to his waist. Half way up He looked up and started to panic. He started to kick hard and move his arms. I readied myself and then at 14 feet he stopped and started to spasm (maybe what they call Samba) and he dropped his gun and his arms went out to the side and he began to sink as if falling backward. It was a horrible sight! I've never seen a blackout before this day. I instantly ditched my gun and blasted down and broke his descent at 24 feet. When I got him up I was yelling for my other partner who was close by. On the surface Matt (other partner) ditched our weight belts. The waves were crashing over our heads and I had a hard time getting his snorkel out (never leave your snorkel in!). The boat was about 100 ft. away. Dealing with the waves was frustrating while I was trying to keep water out of his mouth. We finally got him to the boat and he was in and out of consciousness. The rescue breathing helped but he kept wanting to sleep. I got some o2 from a near by scuba boat and it helped a lot. He would get up and say, "I'm okay! I'm okay! then fall over out cold. I wanted him to sit upright and stay awake. There was a team waiting there at the pier and they began rushing him into the chamber and I yelled, " NO! NO! He's not bent!!" He blacked out! Then they rushed him to Naval Hospital and we all went into the ER with our camo wetsuits. Everyone thought we were crazy. They put him on a breathing machine and gave him powerful Diuretics to remove fluid from his lungs. Next day they released him. His eyes had broken vessels making the whites look bloody. It was scary looking. He survived and we thanked the good Lord and celebrated. We also went over every single thing we did right or wrong and studied Blackouts and how to prevent them. It was a learning experience for all of us.
Four days later was my little girl's 6th B-day party and all the spearos watched in horror as the profile played out on John's D-3. You could hear the shock and surprise when he hit 14 feet. The total dive was 1:47 and depth was 90 ft. Not a bad profile at all but with the excitment and extra weight it was too much. We still dive with John and he is a much safer diver now. We understand better what blackout is and how to enjoy diving without being paranoid. I feel a special bond with all spearos and divers who freedive because we face a lot of the same monsters.
Thanks for Reading and please Dive safe! Never alone!!
Skip Perry
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great story Skip, thanks for sharing it. The scenario is OH so classic. At that depth, a correctly weighted diver would take about 30 seconds to reach surface. The feeling of well being due to the pressure, and a new eager spearo.. perfect BO ingredients.
Glad you were all OK learned a lot, and great save on your part.
Glad you were all OK learned a lot, and great save on your part.
Thank you for reading it. We always knew not to hyperventilate and I've warned him about that feeling of well being due to the PO2 at depth but he got seduced with all the big fish down there and he wasn't weighted correctly. He was negative from about 3m! He liked it I guess because he didn't have to kick much. Now he uses 2 kilo with a 3 mil wetsuit and we are all positively buoyant from 10 m up.
hyperventilation and the "feeling of well being" are separate issues. You will have "the feeling of well being" without any hyperventilation at all. It is due to the pressure at depth "squeezing" useful O2 to the parts and receptors that look forward to it. The problem comes on the "extraction" or vacuum effect on the way up when the loss is greatly felt, sometimes in the case of your buddy, to the point of shutdown.
either way, hyperventilation is bad.
either way, hyperventilation is bad.
Skip,
Very nice description and more useful for more divers than you might think.
The first B0 I ever saw looked exactly like you described. We all knew the guy was pushing way past his limits but we were too stupidly macho to make him stop. Reading your description and what led up to the B0 will hit home to at least a few divers. Thanks
Connor
Very nice description and more useful for more divers than you might think.
The first B0 I ever saw looked exactly like you described. We all knew the guy was pushing way past his limits but we were too stupidly macho to make him stop. Reading your description and what led up to the B0 will hit home to at least a few divers. Thanks
Connor
Connor,
Thanks! My partner that blacked out has learned from the experience and so have we. He didn't dive for a month or two and then he worked his way back into it. Now he's much more careful. I felt bad because no one wanted to dive with him after that. Many people were treating me like a hero but I felt guilty for putting him at risk. If he died, I would've felt responsible because I was watching him and I am the guy who got him involved with free diving.
We need a course out here. We almost got PFD to come out but there wasn't enough interest. We're going to try it again.
Skip
Thanks! My partner that blacked out has learned from the experience and so have we. He didn't dive for a month or two and then he worked his way back into it. Now he's much more careful. I felt bad because no one wanted to dive with him after that. Many people were treating me like a hero but I felt guilty for putting him at risk. If he died, I would've felt responsible because I was watching him and I am the guy who got him involved with free diving.
We need a course out here. We almost got PFD to come out but there wasn't enough interest. We're going to try it again.
Skip
Don't feel bad, it happens to us all. And the truth is, everybody is ultimately responsible for themselves.
I invited a DBer that I'd never met on a Bahamas trip (unirdna). He B0ed on me the first day on a 125 ft dive. First time I'd ever seen anybody do a long dive in that kind of depth, much less actually rescue anybody. Sobered us both up.
By fortunate coincidence, that was my first dive trip after a PFI course (and I still screwed up the rescue).
There is a good thread on his B0, a few pages back in Freediving stories, worth reading. "Lessons leaned in the Bahamas, an intimate account of our greatest enemy" or something like that.
Connor
I invited a DBer that I'd never met on a Bahamas trip (unirdna). He B0ed on me the first day on a 125 ft dive. First time I'd ever seen anybody do a long dive in that kind of depth, much less actually rescue anybody. Sobered us both up.
By fortunate coincidence, that was my first dive trip after a PFI course (and I still screwed up the rescue).
There is a good thread on his B0, a few pages back in Freediving stories, worth reading. "Lessons leaned in the Bahamas, an intimate account of our greatest enemy" or something like that.
Connor
I just got done reading it. Very interesting story! (Davis code)
I felt like I was there. Scary stuff. Great job on the rescue Connor. I'm wondering if he experienced nitrogen narcosis. What do you think Connor? Frank is lucky to have a dad like you. He can learn so much. Great Job!
Skip
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It was "interesting" all right. I'd just as soon be stay on the boring side!
Personal opinion, yes, unirdna was having a touch of narcosis. Since then, I've watched the forums closely for further information, little bits, trickling out slowly. Efattah especialy has had some good observations.
Narcosis is an issue that isn't well known or fully understood for freedivers. Its been known for a while that narcosis is a major problem for deep competition CWF or no limits dives. There appear to be two causes, N2 and C02, probably in combination. Could be, for freedivers, the C02 side is more important. Further, it appears that dives to moderate depths, like 30 meters or slightly less, can run into narcosis issues. Diving exhale (frc) is thought to minimize narcosis problems and I've certainly noticed a distinctly more "clear headed" feeling than normal on deeper frc dives. That could be lessened narcosis, maybe.
Connor
Personal opinion, yes, unirdna was having a touch of narcosis. Since then, I've watched the forums closely for further information, little bits, trickling out slowly. Efattah especialy has had some good observations.
Narcosis is an issue that isn't well known or fully understood for freedivers. Its been known for a while that narcosis is a major problem for deep competition CWF or no limits dives. There appear to be two causes, N2 and C02, probably in combination. Could be, for freedivers, the C02 side is more important. Further, it appears that dives to moderate depths, like 30 meters or slightly less, can run into narcosis issues. Diving exhale (frc) is thought to minimize narcosis problems and I've certainly noticed a distinctly more "clear headed" feeling than normal on deeper frc dives. That could be lessened narcosis, maybe.
Connor
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I work on a recreational dive boat and the best days are the boring and uneventful days!
My friends would ask how my day was and I'd say, " Boring and uneventful! Just the way I like it."
Thanks!
Skip