Salvimar Predathor Vuoto?

[popgun pete]

Probably the same pin diameter is used in both guns as the "Vintair" has the 1.5 mm "trigger piston", as they refer to it in the parts list, and I don't see any reason for it to be any different in the "Predathor". The length of those pins may be different as the plastic triggers used in either gun are of a different shape and they may be pivoting at different heights in their handle mouldings as the "Vintair" grip handle appears to be a little lower with respect to the underside of the pressure tank than the grip handle is on the "Predathor", but it may be by only a very small amount and the difference may only be an illusion created by the styling in that area around the triggers.

Basically the "Predathor" is a restyled "Vintair" with the side-mounted line release taking over the position of the transverse safety slide switch which has had to be relegated to a position further back in the "Predathor" grip. Whether the safety is any better in that position is irrelevant as that is where it had to go if the new design was to be kept as simple as possible. Simplicity and reliability often go together with less things to go wrong.

I note the instructions warn users against any adjusting of the trigger sensitivity screw on page 17 (for the English version, page 9 in Italian). Hopefully that means they set it up correctly at the factory, unlike the Mares "Cyrano Evo" workers who seem to have been a little careless in that area.

 

[Diving Gecko]

Aha, the plot thickens.
I have been guilty of passing on my assumptions, that it would be a 1.5mm trigger pin on the Predathor as I could not see why anyone would go larger than that on a modern gun. But then I had seen some mentionings on the Italian forums that users felt that the gun was a bit hard on the trigger pull.
I just found this test/review:
http://www.pescasublog.it/pneumatici/salvimar-predathor-100/

From google translate it says this:

The trigger is particularly inclined, and this favors the movement of the fingertip in the upper part of the same, disfavoring the lever which actuates the piston of connection (2 mm.)
​

They also mention an add-on kit that adds adjustment to the trigger but don't know if there is also a 1.5mm trigger somewhere. All in all, a bit confusing.

Perhaps, the Predathor also has slightly different trigger geometry, I guess that could have an influence as well.

 

[Diving Gecko]

BTW, here is an o-ring replacement kit for the Predathor (excluding muzzle seal?):
http://www.edosub.it/ecommerce/inde...ategory_id=57&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=34

 

[Diving Gecko]

I couldn't resist! I ended up ordering a 115 with reel for 188euro from subprof. Now i have to wait for 2 months.

I tried with the VPN for scubastore but that doens't work, unless you ship it to family or friend over seas and they forward it to Australia.

Wow, what happened, it's up to 230 euros now. That's quite an increase. Seems like Salvi is done being the new kid on block with nice pricing...

[EDIT] I looked some more, and again EdoSub turned out to have good prices. He has the 115 for 202 euros. Still a tad of a hike but much better.

I do recall starting to keep an eye on Salvimar two years back and thinking their gear looked very nice and very nicely priced. Maybe they are indeed raising prices. Eg. I was looking for a 1.5mm tropical wetsuit and theirs, now, run almost 200 euros...

BTW, I haven't given up on converting a Mirage to a blue water gun, but I may be able to spend some weeks in the Philippines before I get my Mirage lengthened. I have two friends there now, each setting up their own freediving and scuba schools.
So, that's why I am now looking into the Predathor in 115cm, so that I would have a gun I could keep there.

 

[popgun pete]

Well here is a photo of the "Predathor" trigger from the same catalogue, check out the pin shown on top of the image. Plus the line release "star" and the grub screw that acts as the pivot.

 

[popgun pete]

Line wrap tension may affect the "Predathor" more due to that forward arm on the trigger having to push past the arm of the "revolving star" type line release lever that is currently leaning against it, but that would also depend on the degree of tension found in the shooting line wraps. The wraps just need to be tight enough to not fall off the wrapping point hooks, but sometimes users can have them strung too tight, especially if they have added a bungee to the line and have applied a lot of stretch to it.

 

[Diving Gecko]

Well here is a photo of the "Predathor" trigger from the same catalogue, check out the pin shown on top of the image. Plus the line release "star" and the grub screw that acts as the pivot.
View attachment 41425

Yup, I came across those as well.
And while I would say my first impression, is that it looks like a 1.5mm pin, I couldn't be sure.
It's a fairly easy silent upgrade to make even during a production run, so they might have switched to 1.5mm.

I have actually emailed Edo about it, so let's see what he says.

 

[Diving Gecko]

Edo got back to me.
So, it is indeed a 2mm pin...
Also, as Gazz pointed out, despite what Salvimar says in their catalogue, the 115 and 130cm models come with an 8mm spear. That's actually a bit uncool.

 

[popgun pete]

A possibility is that the 1.5 mm pin was being bent and the size was increased to 2 mm to prevent that from happening, or it has always been 2 mm once the testing program for the "Predathor" was completed. If you look at the "Predathor" trigger photo the flat top of the metal head of the (sensitivity) screw that pushes on the bottom of the pin is well below the pivot hole in the trigger, whereas on most guns it is on a horizontal line that passes through the pivot hole slightly below the diameter if you draw a line through the pivot hole (I am looking at a removed "Cyrano" trigger as I type this). Now in that latter position the metal head moves more or less up and down (or close to a vertical tangent) in its travel arc, but place the metal head further down, as it is on the "Predathor", and then there is more horizontal movement as well as vertical movement in that lower portion of the travel arc and it is also moving at a larger radius than it is on the "Cyrano" trigger. Could be that the greater horizontal (rearward) component of movement of the metal head was bending the 1.5 mm pin which is only meant to be pushed upwards. In a "Cyrano", and probably a "Vintair", the metal head just moves the pin up and down. A question now would be why such a large step, or drop, on the rear facing arm of the "Predathor" trigger? Maybe they wanted more travel arc on the trigger in order to clear the "star" type line release lever and then tip the sear lever over (which releases the piston), that way they could keep away from synchronization problems that can break line release levers. Another answer may be the rear position of the safety slide, it is now lower down on the gun in the vertical sense and the rear tab on the trigger has to interact with it, so my guess is that dictated the height of the rear step on the trigger's rearward arm.

 

[Gazz]

I have dismantled the Vintairs a couple of times and the pins are definitely 2mm (1.5 would bend to easy).

Regarding Petes observation above, i tried to convert my "vintair vuoto" to a "predathor vuoto" by swapping the handle i had from a regular predathor 75 (which is actually a really good low viz/harbour gun). The problem that presented itself was not the trigger position vertically but the position Horisontally. The Vintair had a shorter space between the trigger and the main valve.

Regarding sensitivity, the predathor 115 can at times be a bit stiff (more stiff than the vintair or "seac hunter"), I put this down to the 8mm spear and the gun size, but perhaps Petes observations about the angle of the trigger has some bearing on this.

I haven't had any dramas with the predathor so far and I am looking forward to nailing a big kingfish with it.

 

[popgun pete]

The "Vintair" parts list clearly states that part as "Pistone grilletto ø1,5mm", but if you have found 2 mm pins then Salvimar have either changed it or made a mistake in their instructions which were last modified earlier this year. I have a Scubapro "Magnum" and although I did not measure it the transmission pin is certainly fatter than 1.5 mm and that gun is the former embodiment of the "Vintair". The "Magnum" was intended to be an up-rated "Sten" clone for the US market, so an effort was made to improve it in every way, but some of the changes made were better than others. Mares first fitted a 1.5 mm pin in the "Cyrano" Apnea System guns, previously the "Cyrano" had a fatter transmission pin (Mares refer to it as a "connecting plunger"), but it was changed to the smaller size to lessen the trigger pull and is used in conjunction with a metal guide tube that Mares describe as a "spacing sleeve" on the parts list. All "Cyrano" gun production switched to the Apnea System handle many years ago. Personally I don't think the pin diameter needs to be so small and have used guns with much bigger pins and have never had a problem pulling the trigger. In the original "Sten" the "pin" is a metal cylinder with an "O" ring groove in the middle, so it is a lot bigger than the pins used these days.

The point I was making is that if you look at a removed trigger from the left hand side then the vertical pushing action is best achieved around the 3 o'clock position where the trigger contact with the base of the pin is mainly swinging vertically and the stroke required is short. But if you need a longer stroke, such as first disengaging a line release and only then tipping the sear lever over, then you need to go closer to a 4 o'clock position at the start (angular approximations only, none of this is exact) to lengthen that swing and still tip the sear lever over at 3 o'clock. Pressure inside the gun always blows the pin outwards, so the pin always sits on the trigger, but the pin's base slightly changes contact with the flat top of the metal screw head as the pin is constrained to move vertically while the trigger and every part of it swings on an arc. A very short arc can approximate a straight line, but not when you need to increase the length of the arc. That extra arc travel makes the base of the pin slide across the metal head, the movement is small, but it does put side loading on the pin.

 

[Gazz]

The point I was making is that if you look at a removed trigger from the left hand side then the vertical pushing action is best achieved around the 3 o'clock position where the trigger contact with the base of the pin is mainly swinging vertically and the stroke required is short. But if you need a longer stroke, such as first disengaging a line release and only then tipping the sear lever over, then you need to go closer to a 4 o'clock position at the start (angular approximations only, none of this is exact) to lengthen that swing and still tip the sear lever over at 3 o'clock. Pressure inside the gun always blows the pin outwards, so the pin always sits on the trigger, but the pin's base slightly changes contact with the flat top of the metal screw head as the pin is constrained to move vertically while the trigger and every part of it swings on an arc. A very short arc can approximate a straight line, but not when you need to increase the length of the arc. That extra arc travel makes the base of the pin slide across the metal head, the movement is small, but it does put side loading on the pin.

That make sense, but I cant confirm until i take it apart.
One thing I do note is the predathor triggers initial press is always stiff (ie after not using it in a week).

 

[Diving Gecko]

I have dismantled the Vintairs a couple of times and the pins are definitely 2mm (1.5 would bend to easy).

Regarding Petes observation above, i tried to convert my "vintair vuoto" to a "predathor vuoto" by swapping the handle i had from a regular predathor 75 (which is actually a really good low viz/harbour gun). The problem that presented itself was not the trigger position vertically but the position Horisontally. The Vintair had a shorter space between the trigger and the main valve.

Regarding sensitivity, the predathor 115 can at times be a bit stiff (more stiff than the vintair or "seac hunter"), I put this down to the 8mm spear and the gun size, but perhaps Petes observations about the angle of the trigger has some bearing on this.

I haven't had any dramas with the predathor so far and I am looking forward to nailing a big kingfish with it.

Spear thickness shouldn't have an impact on trigger force, I'd think. Tank pressure, pin diameter and geometry (and friction) should be the variables.

The Hunter does come with a 2mm pin, bought I thought the Vintairs came with 1.5mm pins. At least the instruction manual says so, but Salvimar could have changed to a 2mm during production, I guess.

If the geometry allows for 1.5mm pins, they won't bend. Newer Stens come with 1.5mm. Most newer designs do, too. One Air and Airbalete certainly do and Cyrano (Evo) HF I would think did, too. I think the LG Revolution sports a 1.5mm.
It is kinda the new standard and many of the Italian spearos have made the modification to guns that used to have 3mm pins.

I even have 1.3mm in my Mirage at a bit over 30 bar and in my Hunter as well. I have bent the Mirage pins a few times - but not from shooting. But from the barrel twisting inside the tank upon assembly. Smart move would be to insert trigger last.

But if the pins in Salvimars designs tend to be longer, I agree that that could be the reason to go to 2mm pins.

 

[Diving Gecko]

sorry, double...

 

[popgun pete]

One thing I never thought to query is the actual measurement method used on the pin. You need to do it with metal vernier calipers or a micrometer. I have some plastic vernier calipers that could give an erroneous reading because their zero setting is inaccurate, they are a piece of junk that only looks like the real thing as the jaws are out in terms of their contact edge, which is thinly moulded and has no precision.

I went back to the Salvimar 2013 catalogue and it clearly states in the gun description for the "Vintair" that it has a 1.5 mm transmission pin, this is when the gun is first being announced. I remember thinking at the time that was a change from the earlier "Magnum", as was the rear inlet valve cap (using a four screw attachment) and the inlet valve body, although I only realized that when I saw the smaller bore hand pump (the Scubapro hand pump was relatively large in its bore and had a larger screw thread on its nose).

Hence if the pins are now 2 mm then it definitely has been changed in the "Vintair". The less a pin protrudes and the more firmly supported it is then it can be made thinner, but it requires more than the plastic moulding to do it, you need some metal, such as that brass threaded bush.

The trigger can feel stiff if the gun has sat for some time, and especially if it was not washed after the last use in terms of the pivot pin having salt deposits on it. Also the transmission pin "O" ring can tend to stick as the exposed outer face dries out, the gun either needs wetting down or oiling. If you look at the "Vintair" then you will see that it has two "porthole" oiling points, one for the power regulator shaft and one for the trigger, you only need a couple of drops using the same oil as is used in the gun. Although most modern guns don't have oiling points, you can add the drops in the selector gate and down alongside the trigger with the gun held inverted. After oiling you work the items backwards and forwards to distribute the oil on the sliding pins/shafts. You don't overdo it, just add some if the gun is sitting for weeks without being used and you are about to use it. I always do that and have written about it before on this forum. Don't use grease or thick oil, the idea is the water takes over the "O" ring lubrication once the gun is submerged.

 

[popgun pete]

Either the distributor has changed or there is a new emphasis on pneumatic spearguns as I see the "Vuoto" is now available in Australia. There is a Salvimar advert on the rear cover of the January 2016 issue of the IF&SN magazine with a diver holding the gun and a reference to a "pelagic-spearfishing" web-site. Three models are listed, two of the longer guns and a midsize model.

 

[Diving Gecko]

I don't have anything to base this on, but I have a feeling, they sell quite well.
Also, they are well-priced, or at least used to be.
They even offer it now with a carbon fiber tank, haha;-)

Spare parts for it seems decently priced, too. Eg. the spare barrels are 30-50% cheaper than the ones for Seac Assos.
Not that anyone really wears out a barrel - but I looked into it since I needed a barrel for my extended Mirage 130 project;-).

 

[popgun pete]

The price depends on what the distributor thinks the market will bear and the "Vuoto" guns here are around $500 to $550 for the longer guns according to the "pelagicspearfishing" Australian web-site. That is more expensive than some of the pneumatic guns that have been around for years and does not include the reel, but is less than the hydroformed barrel guns, although I have not checked their prices in recent times. A carbon tank may look nice when new, but will probably scratch up as it has a resin coat that is not as hard as alloy and there is the potential for the tank to crack rather than dent, so I prefer metal tanks unless the "carbon tank" is actually a sleeve over a metal tank which has a smooth and perfect bore for "O" ring sealing purposes. Plus pneumatic guns are light enough to float like corks unless the carbon tank is better with a reel from the buoyancy perspective.

 

[Diving Gecko]

Some spearos in Denmark have felt the Salvi oleos were too heavy in the shorter lengths. I can't recall how much weight I saved on changing to my custom made CF tanks, it's not much but I will take every gram I can get. But yes, it is still very much a bling factor.

True about the price - import duties and distributor's "politics" can change pricing a whole lot. I should have said that they are well-priced in Europe and even cheaper on that big, big online "Walmart" of dive equipment and as such, I think the prices from Salvimar to their distributors is quite fair.

For example, I was pretty overwhelmed about the pricing on Salvimar products in the Philippines on a recent trip there. Whether import duties are really that heavy there or the dealer needed to pay for a new house or car, I don't know;-). But when prices are substantially higher than in Denmark where we pay min. 48% tax on income and 25%VAT on all products, then I notice, haha.