Samba during Tolernace Tables?

[lungfish]

Samba during Tolerance Tables?

Hi All,

The interest in tolerance tables seems to be growing, if the questions I am encoutering are any indicator...

I wonder how many of you Samba when you are doing tables? Particularly when the ventilation cycle doesn't allow for an even number breaths that end exactly when you should start your next static..... do any of you find yourselves in a Samba during the first 30secs????

 

[SanderP]

Hi Lungfish!

Exactly that happened to me about 2 weeks ago during dry static. I don't know why and I don't know what happened but I think it was something like a samba.

I started my first run of a CO2 table and after about 10 secs something happened. I can't really explain it - I shivered/shaked all over and I didn't see anything (picture faded out, everything was pitch black), but during the samba(?) I didn't think about anything. And when it was over, I realized I was breathing. It lasted for about 10-15 seconds.

I didn't freak out though. I stoped the stopwatch, rested a little bit and later that day I did my PB. Anyway, that's something I definetly don't want to experience in water as I didn't even realize I was breathing again until it was over.

By the way, I hyperventilated before the hold.

What's that all about? Maybe someone can explain more.

 

[lungfish]

Hi Sander,
I have never Samba'd in water, never will. However, I samba all the time when doing tables.... not so much now that I understand what happened but it was a regular issue until I learned what caused it.

And what you described is a Samba, most certainly. Otherwise known as an LOMC or loss of motor control. These do happen to divers, but I have swam all my life and never experienced anything even close while swimming. I have had it happen to me any number of times getting off the couch to adjust the television....

I think this is hypoxia when related to the 02 table. I think that what is happening is this, once you get a few sets into the tables, your gas balances are a lot closer to their limitations than during normal activity. You are reducing your ventilation time and the chance to purge off C02 so it continues to build. At about set 3-4 you are ripe to Samba or blackout due to both increased C02 and decreased 02. If you don't consciously think about your C02 buildup during your ventilations you can inadvertantly fail to purge C02 AND fail to 02 saturate.

I think.

The remedy is accurate breath control during the ventilation. Ten secs of hook breaths post static to purge C02, immediate focus on basic breathup pattern, and careful attention to the last ten secs prior to the next static to make certain that you are continuing to build 02 and/or purging C02 depending on how much time you have from the last breathup breath to the begining of the static.

I could be wrong....

Lungfish

 

[matrixed82]

I have never experienced a samba while doing tables maybe because I mostly do CO2 tables, I don't think I get that hypoxic. I do have a question on the breathing pattern for CO2 tables though, especially when the rest period gets real short.

Should you purge during CO2 talbes? I use to purge but I stopped after a while since I figured that the idea of CO2 tables is to get use to the increased amount of CO2. By purging I may be able to move onto the next phase but am I really getting a better workout?

 

[naiad]

I've done it. The first time I did an O2 table, with intervals of 2:00 and statics of up to 4:30. The last 4:30 was extremely difficult, and contractions started at 1:30, but I was determined to finish it. I did manage to finish it, but as soon as I took a breath afterwards I became aware that I was going to pass out. The next thing I knew there was a feeling of 'skipped time', so I knew I had blacked out. I didn't feel bad in any way afterwards and a few days later I did the same table with no trouble. Now I can do much harder tables, with 1:00 intervals and statics of up to 5:15, without even going near samba.

 

[lungfish]

Should you purge during CO2 talbes? I use to purge but I stopped after a while since I figured that the idea of CO2 tables is to get use to the increased amount of CO2. By purging I may be able to move onto the next phase but am I really getting a better workout?

I don't think that you should actively purge during C02 tables, others may have another opinion. I think that focusing on the ventilation cycle carefully is important but you shouldn't be trying to contravene the purpose of the exercise itself..

Lungfish

 

[Rémi]

Hi Lungfish!

Exactly that happened to me about 2 weeks ago during dry static. I don't know why and I don't know what happened but I think it was something like a samba.

I started my first run of a CO2 table and after about 10 secs something happened. I can't really explain it - I shivered/shaked all over and I didn't see anything (picture faded out, everything was pitch black), but during the samba(?) I didn't think about anything. And when it was over, I realized I was breathing. It lasted for about 10-15 seconds.

I didn't freak out though. I stoped the stopwatch, rested a little bit and later that day I did my PB. Anyway, that's something I definetly don't want to experience in water as I didn't even realize I was breathing again until it was over.

By the way, I hyperventilated before the hold.

What's that all about? Maybe someone can explain more.

It does not sound like an hypoxic samba to me but somethink due to low blood pressure, as you have with over inflated lungs. Just like what hapened to Tom Sietas during the word championships.
This is more likely to happen after hyperventilation.
It is verry unlikely to get hypoxic enough after 10 seconds of a first run of a CO2 table. :naughty

 

[naiad]

Should you purge during CO2 talbes? I use to purge but I stopped after a while since I figured that the idea of CO2 tables is to get use to the increased amount of CO2. By purging I may be able to move onto the next phase but am I really getting a better workout?

I do. I don't know if it is the best way though, maybe I should just try to be braver about high CO2.

I started my first run of a CO2 table and after about 10 secs something happened. I can't really explain it - I shivered/shaked all over and I didn't see anything (picture faded out, everything was pitch black), but during the samba(?) I didn't think about anything. And when it was over, I realized I was breathing. It lasted for about 10-15 seconds.

That has happened to me because of excessive hyperventilation before doing a static in a sitting position. It was also a very hot day. I normally do statics lying down.

Lucia

 

[DeepThought]

If any of you is having a REAL LMC from temporary cerebral hypoxia I think you are doing something wrong and should stop that session and if it happens again, modify intervals/breathing patterns/length of apnea/etc.
Why stopping?
1) Safety. An LMC should be teated as a blackout as it usually means you were close to one and it is an hypoxic episode. Spontaniously waking up after a consecutive BO is thought to be less certain than on the first one. So in theory the chance to die training dry increases this way.
2) The training effect of BO/LMC is not considered to be a positive one (nor I think a responsible diver should think it is worth it).

Having an hypoxic episode at the start of the first breathold sounds to me like what more experienced divers get as a 'packing BO'. Although you might not be packing, a full exhale/inhale can cause a sudden cahnge in blood pressure and heartrate and if you have been hyperventilating (=purging) it could be enough to topple you off. I am not sure if there is a formal consensus about stopping apnea for the day after such a blackout but you can't be too catious.

About CO2 buildup, I think it is a good thing and the target of those CO2 tables, CO2 expedites the urge to breath but it also conserves O2 (if you don't freak out from the urge itself) and keeps you conscious in lower blood O2 saturation levels.

 

[lungfish]

Good considerations, all....

And yes, changes in blood pressure can cause Samba's as well....

This is all good information. I will say that if I Samba during tables, that is it for the day....

Lungfish

 

[naiad]

If I have a BO/LMC for any reason, even dry, I stop training for that day.

I never deliberately push myself to LMC.

Sometimes I have had a BO or LMC the first time I try something new, such as a more difficult table or a new technique. It almost never happens again, even if I do the same thing. It is strange that things which have caused me to black out in the past, I can now do exactly in the same way without going anywhere near LMC.

 

[SanderP]

Having an hypoxic episode at the start of the first breathold sounds to me like what more experienced divers get as a 'packing BO'.

Packing can couse BO? Why's that?

That has happened to me because of excessive hyperventilation before doing a static in a sitting position. It was also a very hot day. I normally do statics lying down.

Same here, sitting position and hyperventilation.

Oh, and I did a new PB of 4:20 today .

 

[DeepThought]

Packing can couse BO?

Packed lungs seem to put physical pressure on the heart and there is also a higher resistance for the heart to pump blood through the lungs so as result blood pressure drops and pulse raises to compensate.

 

[lungfish]

I think the message here, with dry statics and tolerance tables, is to avoid over-pressurizing the chest cavity. With saturation, a huge peak inhale and packing is not necessary. In otherwords, you don't have to have a huge lungful of air to complete statics... you need to be saturated from a correct breath-up and relaxed. Do a 3/4 inhale at most...
Lungfish

 

[naiad]

About CO2 buildup, I think it is a good thing and the target of those CO2 tables, CO2 expedites the urge to breath but it also conserves O2 (if you don't freak out from the urge itself) and keeps you conscious in lower blood O2 saturation levels.

I might try CO2 tables without purge breaths and see what happens. Even with lots of hyperventilation in the intervals, they are extremely difficult and I think my CO2 level must be high despite the purge breaths. I don't know if maybe my CO2 tolerance is not very good, because I find CO2 tables much harder than O2 tables, and dynamics of any distance are still a real struggle. I am working on it.

 

[DeepThought]

Think of it this way: the main objective is to train CO2 tolerance so you need to tolerate CO2 for that. If you will not succeed doing the same tables maybe you should do shorter ones, get the same CO2 levels without hyperventilating and less time, sounds like a good deal for me.

 

[naiad]

I'll give it a try. It means I will have to do shorter times, but maybe it's worth it. My CO2 tolerance will then be far behind my O2 tolerance.

Then I'll be so out of breath in the intervals that I'll be hyperventilating anyway.

I know that the main thing that is holding me back in my training is CO2 tolerance. If I could improve it, my static and dynamic performance would be so much better.

 

[naiad]

CO2 tables and hyperventilation

I did a CO2 table without any purge breaths, just slower deep breaths. It was very good, certainly not harder than usual, and possibly easier. I was much more relaxed, I don't know if it was because of the breathing.