Samba with 5 packs?!?!?

[titan]

hi I have great lungs naturally I didn't had the speriometry test but I can assure that I have an impressive pair for my size but it is an estimative that are larger than average, I did a lot of frc dives lung streching, when I was 14 like 8 years ago I did some statics and I felt dizzy just of doing 2 packs,but I still could do it to 4:30 min and the feeling would go away during static minor sinynthom,


after seing the aarhus wc I returned to the pool after many years land let the the fish rest I tried to pack 5 times and I had what felt like a samba dizzy,lost,confused,light headed fell on the edge of the pool with the head and still didn't knew what hit me ?!?!?!!?
Cmon 5 pakcs after a full inhale the factor isn't anymore disconfort, lungs traquea pressure but the dizziness or even the total messs that I went through today I'm only 22 and I'm healthy and fit
I'm trying to do it at a slower place since I did in a tom sietas way (pretty damm fast but it only delays the problem and by the way and no warm ups




Someone have similar problem? please could someone kindly answer this question

thanks

 

[lungfish]

I have encountered this sort of thing. Not sure I understand it entirely but here is what I got out of it - I hope it helps...

Remember, breathing/ventilating is for loading blood with 02 and that is what keeps you alive. Peak inhale and packing are for equalizing and are about pressure management. Packing will not increase dive durations.

The fact is that for dry land breath work there is no need to pack or even take a peak inhale that is beyond about a three/fourths capacity. Frankly, unless you are diving below about 80ft, packing isn't really necessary. It will not increase your dive duration.

Packing is to give you extra gas for equalizing when you are passing four atmospheres and your lungs start to collapse... and a couple of packs can offset the diaphram contraction at two atmospheres. But packing at sea level or above is really un-necessary. When you are diving, Boyles law will manage the gas volume in the lungs. But when you are at or above sea level, packing serves no purpose.

What it will do is overpressurize your chest and lead you to a spin out....

Its pretty easy to spin out if you aren't doing steady breathwork. I used to spin out doing tolerance tables... usually the first couple in the set. I would not be stressed like I would be later in the set. I just would do my ventilation, a bit aggressively, then take a big peak inhale and hold. I would spin out about fifteen seconds later, often to the point of releasing my breath.

The cause, I believe, is the constant overpressure in the chest though I don't know the exact mechanism at work.

Hope that helps. Also, don't stand up and do breathwork.. or drive, or ride a bike, or walk.....

The safest approach to statics and breath training is to never do them in water alone. Ever. Practice sitting down, with a stop watch. I use a half lotus position and really focus on the body sensations... use a three fourths breath no matter how long the static. Never pack unless diving to depth.....

 

[Mullins]

Titan, had you eaten in the last couple of hours before your training session? I find that is the biggest factor in preventing packing blackouts. Also your chest is probably quite inflexible after all the time off. I'm a lot more susceptible to backing BOs after a layoff as well. Packing more slowly helps a bit. The dizziness/fainting is caused by the heart getting squashed by the lungs.

Erm, Lungfish... of course packing increases max time/depth/distance. Why do you think all the top pool divers do it? Just for fun?

 

[trux]

I started a thread about packing blackouts, featuring a recent scientific study by the Lund university in Sweden, just two days ago here: http://forums.deeperblue.com/freediving-science/84029-packing-blackout.html

Yes, Dave is correct, packing BO is primarily caused by mechanical squashing of the heart, which then has limited volume, and output, and even inducing asystole during the BO (no cardiac electrical activity). The brain then gets hypoxic. And of course, lungfish is not correct that packing is used only for depth. Many freedivers can increase the volume of the air in their lungs by tens of percent, which significantly increases the breath-hold time. On the other hand, there are also other factors that play a role, so the increase is not always proportional, so the exact gain may be disputable, but it exist. I agree though that for recreational diving or spearfishing, the additional risks of packing are not worth of it.

I'd tell that the most important factor at packing blackouts is hyperventilation. Packing itself has already effects similar to hyperventilation - due to the increased PaO2 in lungs, CO2 gets faster released from blood, which then can have similar consequences as hyperventilation, including blood pH change, and consequent vasoconstriction of carotides supplying the brain. The efect is temporary though, and unlike a hyperventilation the CO2 is not released from body. If you hyperventilate though previously, before the packing, you increase the risk of packing blackout very seriously. Not only the heart cannot work efficiently when squashed, but additionally the carotides get stronger constricted and hence the BO may be rather sudden.

The study mentioned in the other thread possibly indicates that susceptible individuals may be put at risk of a serious cardiac incident due to the packing. This concern was substantiated by the observed increase in serum myoglobin concentration after the event.

 

[titan]

Thanks mates I already know the advantages of packing since just 3/5 packs not only delays first contraction but also helps with equalisation I use mainly for depth I started a very slowly adpation to the depht and to pack wich make me feel pretty odd

but I think that eating plus packing faster made this but i still get dizy sometimes,

Thanks trux I have already seen that study and I wanted to know if is out there similar cases to mine or if Freedivers in the begining of the packing phase felt the same, is chronical?wich factors induce this?could be a warning sign for a silent problem?

Today here in northen Spain there is an amount of spearos, I'm gonna try out 6 packs at a slower place to see if can get enough bottom time to see a fascinating fish with 2 m that lies near 20 m but has the bad habitt of going down has soon has he sees spearos:blackeye

 

[jome]

How was your hydration?

Poorly hydrated I get dizzy even from a full inhale sometimes.

 

[Mullins]

Titan, it's not eating that is the problem - drops blood pressure. If I want to do a swim with max packing I need to make sure I've eaten something 1-2hrs prior.

When I do start to BO while packing I can usually hold it off by putting some pressure on my chest with the breathing muscles (plus abs to prevent the diaphragm taking all the strain). Probably not very good for me but it works long enough to get underwater :blackeye

Hydration definitely plays a role. While the association between hyperventilating and packing BOs does seem to make sense, it never seems to be the case for me.

 

[cebaztian]

Yes, Dave is correct, packing BO is primarily caused by mechanical squashing of the heart

? Or pressure on the venous return, and heart gets no blood?
And some risk of airemboli, which can be deadly. (So why think you can copy experts like T. Sietas). Its a highly abnormal activity.

Sebastian

 

[titan]

hidration + no food + slower packing + even more flexibility = problem solved but BO from packing can still exist and my guess is that goes worse with drops in blood pressure so I could recomend to older freedivers to extreme packing

I normaly train full exale statics and frc/full inhale max dynamics some max with full packing times to times and chest flexibility otherwise swicthing between pack and frc is unberable I gonna start with this training log to see how it works so far I got contractions at 50 m DYN with small fins
max only in rare ocasions when buddy is available :blackeye

Trux, mullins everyone thx a lot another time I learned a lot with DB folks
there is no substitute for continuos learning:martial

 

[Mullins]

hidration + no food + slower packing

Other way around Titan - got to make sure you have eaten something

 

[titan]

yap I already got a pumpkin pie visibility was good 10 m and water 16ºC wich is very good here, recipe for an happy day

I think I have to count my previous has a pb or something it was while packing but still counts right?:rcard

 

[titan]

my guess that probably loosing 5 kg of mostly muscle mass in the last month didn't help either maybe it caused a general drop in blood pressure?!?!?

although in apnea performance I don't feel any difference even guy brew when I saw at aarhus most of dyn final people where very builk?!?!?!maybe having extra muscle means also more energy and blood storage in a way to compensate for the burned O2?!?!?!?!

 

[lungfish]

Sure Mullins, I didn't address that well... more air equals more time. At the same time, over-pressurizing doesn't necessarily come without inherent weaknesses. I follow a simple approach to teaching and it isn't always as accurate and polished to produce competitive divers but it keeps my students alive. I teach deep diving and deep swimming but I don't teach competitive diving. Its more about being there, safely, at whatever depth rather than squeezing every inch of performance out of a distance swim so it probably doesn't translate well.
I hadn't contributed to this list in years and got a note in my email today asking me to participate... probably should have thought that through.

 

[ploum]

titan > I experience the exact same symptoms as you and I'm a beginner but with, I believe, a fairly good natural lung capacity (I'm able to sing a note continuously for 90-120sec) and a very good natural "carpe".

But being a beginner, I think that my chest is not flexible enough so I completely abandonned the "packing", even to go at 30m (which is my current deep).

I also feel somewhat similar symptoms after doing the "camel position" ( http://www.myyogaonline.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/yoga_camel_pose.jpg )


I agree with trux conclusions : heart is strecthed because of natural big lungs in a rigid thorax + drop of partial pressure of CO2 in those lung : it's like a fainting game.

Now, I never do packing anymore before holding breath and I sometine practice one or two packing just before emptying the lung. This way, I try to gradually increase thorax flexibility without any bad symptoms.

I'm happy to not be alone in that case and also happy because I believe that thorax flexibility is something we can improve.

 

[titan]

well I figure it out to much tension I wasa lowering the diafragm to much normal inhale muscle and more tune with epiglotis and can pack like amonster now
now the barrier is unconfort again I have to go back to that flexibility training

 

[ploum]

titan > I'm sorry but I don't understand your answer. How did you solve your problem exactly ?

 

[Narsil]

Sadly, I consider myself an expert at packing BOs. At times I can get quite dizzy with just a full breath, without packing at all, despite only using tidal breathing prior to my final breath.

Over the past few years I've played around with hydration, salt levels, eating at different intervals before a session and a few other variables.

I seem to be getting less suscepable. Your milage will vary, but my personal strategy now tends to be:

• Eating a banana or something similar perhaps 90 minutes before a session
• Reasonable hydration levels
• Good salt intake
• Slowly improve chest flexibility by doing reverse packing excersises etc
• No deep breathing or purging whatsoever before beginning to pack
• Positioning: either pack in the water through a snorkel or on back (for statics or depth) or bent over before starting a dynamic swim
• Pausing during packing - i.e. if you are doing 20 packs, do say 10 initially, wait for 7 or 8 seconds until any sense of dizzyness passes, then complete
• If you feel like you are blacking out, up your blood pressure by tensing your ab's - like doing a hook breath without a breath

Good luck

Guy

 

[trux]

That's quite interesting, Guy. Can you tell us if you start packing after normal inhale, or after max inhale? Do you pack untill you cannot anymore, or just certain number of packs?

Interesting thing about the ab tensing - on one hand it is true it increases the PaO2 and the blood tension, hence helping oxygenating the brain, but the packing does increase the pressure actually too. And in the same time the ab contraction adds more pressure on the heart too, so lowering its output just like packing does. So from this point of view, I'd tell the ab tensing should just amlify the effect of packing. But perhaps the blood pressure increase is more important here. Would be interesting to see some detailed medical analysis including EEG and other data - didn't Erika Shagatay try to make a test rabbit from you on the WC?

 

[Narsil]

Yeah, full inhale then packing. I tend to pack to a given (approximate) number, rather than until full, or x% full.

You're right about the ab flexing (I also stare wide eyed, clench my fists and do other stupid looking things). It doesn't work a good percentage of the time. Its more likely to bear fruit if you manage to start a dive, which suggests that the reduced pressure from being under water is what's primarily helping, rather than raising BP.

Packing BOs only last a very short time for me (although internally it feels very pleasant and quite a bit longer). In fact I have often completed dynamic swims after a short PBO 'break', often negatively bouyant because I've lost some air, under the watchful eyes of my club mates of course.

No, Erika didn't get me into her hutch at the WC sadly.

Guy

 

[titan]

hi guy thanks for the input I also have the same problem full inhale and I get dizzy I think your keep your diafragm tense and down while packing increases the risk of BO
tense abs?!?!? what about that insufable bird that you and bjarte carry??!? you both made it to the finals it must help at some point?!?
never tried the abs trick mullins also said something about that I gonna give it a try, after full inhale I just keep litle tension on the diafragm and try to force inhale as a normal tidal breathing while packing and it works pefetly no dizzyness cleeannn
but I must confess the dizzyness feels pretty cool