Science behind progressive static holds?

[Johan Andersson]

My theory has always been that the kidneys produce more bicarbonate with each successive apnea, (compensated metabolic alkalosis), allowing greater buffering capacity.

That would certainly be helpful. But I have data from trained freedivers performing a series of apneas showing that the bicarbonate concentration in the blood plasma stays at an average 25 mmol/L before, during and after the series. So on the short term I do not believe that to be a contributing factor.

Maybe with long-term training you can get a higher blood bicarbonate concentration, but I cannot remember that I have seen any data supporting that idea.

/Johan

 

[cdavis]

"In all my diving I work almost purely on prolonging the 'easy phase' of apnea. I have little interest in the 'struggle' phase and. . ."

And I thought I was the only one.

Thanks, Simos.

 

[Grace]

Still here, listening and learning. Certainly lots to think through in this thread, thank you. As someone new to the sport who is still working out how to work through what I had previously thought were "diaphragmmatic contractions", their recharacterisation above is particularly interesting.

I hope I can find someone patient enough to try a really long session of short holds - in the meantime I might try it with dry holds when I get an hour to spare and report back how it went.

Of course I'll buddy you for a really long static session! I've not had time to do more than 4 breath holds in a session (we generally tend to work in buddy pairs and alternate after each breath hold) so I'd be curious to do some longer sessions myself at some point too. PM/FB me and we'll work out a date.

 

[Simos]

In my case it's definitely what Will mentioned - in fact what I sometimes do to try and stay relaxed is inflate my cheeks to accommodate the air my body is trying to exhale with these contractions. Then I inhale the air again and do the same for the next.

This helps stay more relaxed but I believe it is probably not beneficial for the dive reflex as it tricks the body into thinking that it's breathing when it's not...

 

[Simos]

OK so we managed to arrange something and try a few holds along the lines described above last night (thanks for buddying me Grace! AND for dragging me to the pool ). I didn't stick religiously to the same hold duration but I think I must have done about 6-7 continuous holds in total and they were getting progressively longer.

Overall the approach is really promising (for me at least). All the holds were really easy and enjoyable and I had no contractions. From the 3rd hold I started feeling vasoconstriction kick in and by the 5th hold it was really strong.

In fact interestingly my 5th hold felt really easy (was not the longest because I ended it but kind of wish I'd gone on a bit). I think I messed up the sequence by deciding to make the 6th hold a very short one (1min - with a 1min breathup) in preparation for the last hold but on reflection, I think this didn't help me. If I could do it again I would like to just keep building up with longer and longer holds (stopping at 1st contraction) - not sure why exactly why but it feels really easy this way, especially compared to no-warmup statics.

The downside is that it does take time to do all these holds but if I get the chance I'd like to try a longer session too to see if doing more holds will help.

If any of you get the chance to try, I'd be really interested to see how you find this approach (i.e. lots of progressively longer holds or even lots of equally long holds).

 

[J Campbell]

I also tried doing this, dry, in bed. I did progressively longer holds with 2 min rests between. Just normal resting breathing, no purge or hyper - just a single full inhale from rest each time. I found it was easier and easier. I was able to get to 3 1/2 mins with no discomfort and 4 1/2 by struggling - pretty good for me! I did this for about 1/2 hour.
Wish I could find a local pool buddy to try the real thing.

 

[Menny]

Hi guys, that's a fascinating thread!
Simos, you mentioned that from the 3rd hold you felt vasoconstriction kicks in, can you try to describe that feeling? I do dry statics quite often but never felt vasoconstriction kicks in.
And about the progressively longer holds, I'de like to try them but they looks quite similar to the O2 tables, if that's the case, what are the differencess between O2 tables and progressively longer holds? I'de realy like to give it a chance.
Thanks in advance,Menny.

 

[Simos]

Hi Menny - I haven't felt this for months to remember if there was anything else as I've had to sadly take a break from freediving but the main sensation for me for vasoconstriction was an odd 'emptying/tingly' sensation in my extremities (fingers/hands/feet). Sorry I don't know how else to describe it.

Regarding your question on O2 tables, I guess all kinds of series of holds are some combination between O2/CO2 tables in some respect but it also very much depends on the rest in between. If the rest is long enough then they are not as things (i.e. gases) have enough time to go back to normal by the time you do the next hold and there is not a significant cumulative effect.

Others more experienced than me can explain things better (and more correctly) I am sure!

 

[Menny]

Simos, thanks for your replay and hope you'll be back freediving as soon as possible.
quote:
"In all my diving I work almost purely on prolonging the 'easy phase' of apnea. I have little interest in the 'struggle' phase and I usually end my dives whenever I perceive that I am starting to move into the struggle phase. Yet after repeated holds, the 'easy phase' is definitely prolonged. If I do enough holds, the 'easy phase' alone becomes clearly longer than the max (easy + struggle) I could do with the no warmup approach."

I'de like to try this as well, concentrating the easy phase and see what consequences it'll bring. How was your session looks like? breath holds, rest etc. And did you use any software like apnoe trainer to do it or you used your watch?
Thanks in advance,Menny.

 

[fabikp]

Hi, Menny, as vasoconstriction is concerned, I don't feel it during breathholds, but I can recognize it after series of breathholds. When practising dry static my feet and hands are cold afterwards much more than before, and it takes a long time ( or some stationary biking) to get warm again. Pavel

 

[Menny]

Hi, Menny, as vasoconstriction is concerned, I don't feel it during breathholds, but I can recognize it after series of breathholds. When practising dry static my feet and hands are cold afterwards much more than before, and it takes a long time ( or some stationary biking) to get warm again. Pavel

Got you, thanks Pavel.

 

[Azrael3000]

What also works is doing exhale breathholds. There the vasoconstriction will appear much faster (usually after a few seconds you can feel that something is happening to your extremities).

 

[kovattila]

Hi Eric,

I wanted to ask you if you said that your favorite pattern is 4'30" and 2' rest that means that your max staticis 9'?

And you said that you do 8×4'30" before the max attempt. Then how do you know that the contraction comes at 5'15" at the 8th static?

Thanks
Attila