Sled Records

Sinus flooding?

I've done some shallow dives (<10m) without a mask or nose clip because I had this theory (turns out it wasn't original!) that if water was allowed to enter my nose unrestricted during a dive, it would create ambient pressure in my sinuses and ears eliminating the need to equalize. It seemed to work, water definately entered my nose and sinuses, and I didn't feel any pressure on my ears. I didn't want to go deep that day because I couldn't see, and I wasn't really comfortable. I'm not sure if this is exactly what others are referring to when they talk about a "sinus flooding equalizing technique" (kinda seems like no technique at all!) but I think it must be at least similar. I'll try it deeper once I get a pair of fluid goggles from Eric F. in the spring.

I'd be interested in hearing from others who have either tried something like this or use the sinus flooding technique. I can imagine how it would be a huge advantage equalizing this way in NL and VB.

Aaron

Why shouldn't you be able to flood all the sinus cavities? I see no reason why not. The pressure will force the water into every crack.


Eric Fattah
BC, Canada

Sinuses used to equalise by themselves but now I have to force air in (valsalva). The few times that I forced sea water in, it also entered the eustachian tubes. That feeling ranks up near a root canal or a kidney stone on the unpleasantness scale. I have been rinsing out my nasal passages by drawing sea water into my mouth through my nose. It helps and I've heard stories about divers filling their sinuses before a dive was the reason for asking.
Aloha
Bill

Cebaztian,

If you ask Tanya which has been the hardest discipline from an atheltic point of view , I am sure she would say the VB and she has tried them all. The extremity of depth and then having to get back to the surface is indeed an athletic performance. Watching someone kick up from 122m is a truly athletic achievement. With regard to the media I can tell you that a great % of the media attention has been from the sports industry although life style media will always follow something that gains public interest. We find that all the print news, magazines and TV in the sports industry has covered freediving and mostly when its NL or VB. If it had not been for NL or VB the sport of freediving would have hardly any media recognition. And as for your phrase "flood your sinuses etc etc" I can tell you that Tanya equalises all the way down, and that all the way to 160m is an athletic achievement in its self.

Also I do not think that AIDA got any negative press from the recent death. We were contacted by hundreds of different news starnds in both TV and print following the accident and without exception they all understood that the organisation in question was on its own and did not dive under AIDA rules. In fact I think that due to the accident AIDA got some very good press, at last the media and public knew that there was a governing organisation trying to set safety rules and standards.

With regard to training, I believe that there needs to be equal amount of tyraining whichever discipline you want to do. As I said before Tanya has done all types of record attempts and the training is generally the same with just a few changes for each discipline. NL and VB have there own challenges as do CW and FI, and static for that matter.

With regard to AIDA, I do not think they should turn there back on the deep disciplines, they are here to stay in whatevre form so the answer is to develop the safety requirements to ensure that they are done safely. One thing I would say, is that as part of the rules we have to send a method statement to AIDA to set out what we intend to attempt and provide. AIDA should have, as part of that approving committee members who have tried to a decent depth the particular discipline being discussed..How can someone say that safety measures put in place are safe if they have never attemted that type of dive. And I am ready to be put in my place if that already happens.

As for sinus flooding, have done it by accident and I would prefer the double root canal. Tanya tried it and could not make it work.

Oh and Sam,

Your concerns about NL are correct, this is not something that should be taken lightly. Make sure that safety is in place or do not do it at any cost.

"I can tell you that Tanya equalises all the way down"

in many of the press reports i read, Tanya talks of the 'extreme pain in her ears'...

Joe Public must think freedivers are insane to suffer this 'extreme pain'. Joe then probably assumes that it's a normal part of freediving and that all freedivers experience it. we all know that's not really the case... freedivers should never have to endure any pain.

i'm just surprised that the whole 'pain' thing was bought up so much, because it just makes freediving seem more like a stupid and dangerous activity. it doesn't really do much for the image of freediving. i'm sure these articles have inspired many people to try freediving, but i think references to 'extreme pain' has probably put off just as many people.

i'd be interested to hear your comments Paul.

Its a world record and not meant to be easy. If she could have popped her ears one more time then she would have had less pain, but she could not. Thats the luck of the draw. The reality was that Tanya only got 75% of a breath before she left the surface and still got to 160m. With regard to pain, there are many sports where pain is a factor. I used to play a pretty good quality of rugby where pain was the norm every saturday and during training and that does not stop media coverage nor people entering the sport. I lift weights, run, and there is pain. I do not think that Tanya talking about pain in her ears during a very deep world record attempt stops people trying the sport nor media from reporting stories, quite the opposite. In many ways it depends upon the way it is reported and the facts told. Thats my take on it.

Ask Herbert or anyone else who has attemted a world record in any discipline if they have felt pain in there legs during the ascent and I ma sure they will tell you yes.

160m with just 3/4 lungful is very impressive!

i realise that pain is accepted as part of some physical sports like rubgy. but we have to differentiate between the pain of injury and the 'pain' of fatigue of course, which are two very different things. personally, i don't believe anyone should have to experience real pain when freediving, whatever the level. spraining your ankle on a playing field is one thing, but bursting your ear drums at 160m resulting in vertigo and nausea is quite another! i suppose it all comes down to how much risk you're willing to take.

I played many a game where I was in pain through effort and not injury. Marathon runners, cyclists exerience pain and many more just through effort, I know that on Tanya's VB record she had pain in her legs kicking to the surface. As they say "No pain no gain"!! As far as risk goes, we do not take any, if something happens at 160m we have a safety plan, I and Tanya do not consider there to be any risk whatsoever in a 160m dive if the correct safety procedures are put in place. And we have them all in place and more. But thats a topic for another discussion.

the minute you stop equalising during a dive, the risks inevitably start shooting up. the good thing is that a freediver is always in control and can choose not to accept the risk by turning back. the thing about bending the ear drums is that you never really know when they're going to break, so the safest thing is of course to turn around the moment you fail to equalise.

Along the lines of the original question raised by Sam. She said that there had been some talk of AIDA not ratyfing NL or VB and I assume that is based upon safety. Personally I would like the opposite. Look at the countless accidents and deaths of freedivers over the years doing constant and FI recreationally. Maybe the argument should be to stop FI and Constant as there have only been minimal accidents in NL and none in VB as far as I know. Any thoughts.

Mr. Streeter, how many people are doing CW and FI compared to NL and VB?

Regards Mathias Ahlen

I have been keeping pretty good track of freediving news since '98, and I don't recall ever hearing of a single death in CW or FI. The only deaths I've heard of were Cyril Isoardi in No-Limits and Audrey Mestre in No-Limits. Of course, we hear about tons of deaths of spearfishermen, and many deaths from freedivers training in swimming pools alone. Has anyone heard of anyone dying in CW or FI?


Eric Fattah
BC, Canada

Are yes but how many deaths have there been with guys out freediving on the own, is that not constant weight or are we only talking about Comps. Surely when we all go out freediving for pleasure with our suits and fins, is that not constant weight. Terry Maas's son died freediving, and he was not doing NL or VB so it must have been Constant.

I was under the impression we were talking about 'line diving' for depth, in CW, FI, NL or VB, training, comp or otherwise.

Even taking into account divers who train on descent lines in CW/FI by themselves, I can't recall a single death.


Eric Fattah
BC, Canada

Regarding media attention:

I believe so far, in this thread, nobody has expressed the reality of the media attention so far, or maybe I should say, nobody has painted a clear picture yet. I believe it is quite easy to see why the media attention is on no-limits as opposed to the CW and FI. First of all from the surface nobody is aware of what is going on down there, nobody knows what you are actually dealing with, and most have a simplistic idea of what diving deep is all about. So depth is the first apparent full picture of what diving is all about. The first thing anybody asks about freediving is "How deep?" and "How do you deal with the pain in the ears?". Now of course at the beginning with little other understandings of diving, depth was the most exciting. So competitions and movies brought this to the forefront as being the exciting part.

However, who watches "The Big Blue" with excitement for the moments he is holding onto the sled? I don't think I am alone when I say that almost everybody is fixed on the moments when he is having nothing to do with the sled. It just happens that he is holding the sled when he enters the water as well, being the other exciting moment. Exciting because this is the moment the diver transitions from the human world to the aquatic world. Or another exciting moment exception with the sled, when there is nothing else to do while he is coming up from the dive, so he fingers the medics! But could you imagine the emphasis, intrigue, and amazement if the constant weight diver stopped his kicking/stroking to gesture at a person underwater and then continued along their way to succeed in their dive? I guarantee if that movie was done where all the competitions were constant weight no fins, people would have been much more interested and fascinated in the sport in general.

Maybe to emphasize this, I ran into a fellow at a get-together the other day who I had never met before. He knew very little about diving but brought up he had seen a movie called the Big Blue. And before I knew it he was saying something I have repeated time and time again when I tell people about my beginnings in diving. Essentially he said that he had never associated the movie with our natural ability to be able to dive without scuba. I saw the same movie 3 years before I began diving, yet had no memory of the movie being anything about diving. This being insane since I have always been fascinated with swimming under the water and swimming down and disappearing below people. I would bet on it that there would be a ten-fold audience out there for constant weight diving. People who hear about my diving are always more fascinated as I tell them about my no-fins diving. In cyprus the scuba divers could not stop telling me about the beauty of watching me dive with no-fins. With fins they were less interested and with a weight I am sure I would have barely got a comment.

What I am getting at is that the scene has been set with no-limits from the beginning, so that is what is in the media's attention at the moment. But just because it is the first does not mean it will stay as first. All we need is a nice production and attention solely focused on constant weight dives and I am certain it will grab people with much more excitment and romanticism than NL and VB. When people can imagine themselves trying to pull their way down into the deep, to drift motionlessly down, and then to make their way back to the surface, this is when they get excited at accomplishment. Sure we are all excited to know what is deeper and deeper and to be part of that. But that is one interest. I think constant weight has much more media appeal and will show that in the future, since it emphasizes multiple interests and accomplishments (ie. squeeze, breath-hold, equalizing, finning, stroking, mental awareness). But you are correct if this other side to diving is not focused on with no distractions, then it will remain forgotten and meaningless to the media and spectators. And it is not enough to just tell somebody about the other disciplines and expect them to hear you, unless you do it with the brilliance of a master story teller. It sounds pretty lazy to just suggest the media likes deep and that is the way it goes.

My thoughts so far.

Regarding pain comments:

I think pain in a sport is not a problem. However, so far from what I saw the comments about pain seemed to go against the whole point of the sport and did not further the comment up with an explanation that this was not normal circumstance and can be very dangerous. I am fairly certain I read the part where these statements were made but I can no longer find it. However, if it was followed up by a good explanation in the media, then disregard the next paragraph.

It seemed inconsiderate of the fact that the average person has the idea that diving is performed by overcomming the pain build-up in the ears or by building up a tolerance to it. Especially under the umbrella of a professional practice, an event with a dedicated structure of safety, and a controlled sport by a world-class athelete, the statements sound like they suggest for others to not worry about that pain if they are diving under the water. It does not suggest that they may break their ear-drums.

Regarding deaths:

It seems irrelevant to be comparing recreational to competitive!!? As Mr. Streeter brought up previously race cars, I will continue the relation. Does it make sense to compare the ratio of deaths that occurred in civilian driving of Hyundais to the ratio of deaths that occurred in professional derby racing of Hondas, to form an opinion of the safer car?

However, if no-limits becomes a recreational activity soon, I hazard to guess that from the morbid lot, there will be plenty who will places bets with you over which claims more lives for a given period of the same number of dives!

Sorry, but I just thought of another thing as far as media. Are we never going to get attention for statics because statics done on oxygen almost double the performance of unassisted breath-holds? Man we struggle in vain!

Regardless of all our comments the original question, I think, was should AIDA stop regulating NL or VB. My view on this is a definate NO! Both are here to stay in some form or other and AIDA should not bury there heads in the sand and let it go on while they try and regulate other disciplines. There should be a governing body that regulates the whole of the sport and not just bits of it. AIDA should, and have stepped up to the plate to develop the whole of freediving as a sport and recreation and for me, given the meger resources available to them, have done an excellent job.