I've been reading around here for a little while now and understand that solo diving, especially when pushing your limits is a bad idea. Although it seems like I virtually answered my own question, most of the stuff I'm reading about involves static apnea and people who are PUSHING themselves for progress (IE longer downtimes). What if you are casually snorkeling and diving down to 20-30 feet tops, keeping dive times to a maximum of 2-3 minutes and doubling your dive times on the surface - all of this being done close to shore? (specifically La Jolla cove, shores and other spots around San Diego/UCSD). Is it still an absolutely bad idea? or can you be careful with this?
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Solo freediving: 20-30 feet, 3 min max
- Thread starterdontdo_that
- Start date
Thread Status: Hello
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This is good to read:
http://forums.deeperblue.net/freediving-stories/74732-lessons-learned-swb-story.html
Experience and conservatism cannot be relied on. Unexpected things can and do happen.
http://forums.deeperblue.net/freediving-stories/74732-lessons-learned-swb-story.html
Experience and conservatism cannot be relied on. Unexpected things can and do happen.
Well that just frightend the crap out of me..... glad you pulled that one up and posted it.As a newbie I love to try more depth as probably most of us do.
finding a partner even in the pool is rare,after reading that I can't justify my efforts on my own any more ! good stuf Cornholio
finding a partner even in the pool is rare,after reading that I can't justify my efforts on my own any more ! good stuf Cornholio
You are flirting with the End my friend. Easy to drown in a foot of water, in fact most people drown at the surface, so 'only' 30' is not rational. I'm not saying don't- it's not for anyone to tell you what to do. I solo dive almost exclusively, against better advice, so who am I to say?
But I try to think about the impact on other's before I go past my comfort zone. People blackout during 1 minute dives sometimes and others never experience one, no matter what they do. Your day will come when it comes, but you can still minimize the risk by being conservative... only you can say what 'conservative' means. Stay safe bro.
Cheers (despite the doom and gloom haha!),
Erik.
But I try to think about the impact on other's before I go past my comfort zone. People blackout during 1 minute dives sometimes and others never experience one, no matter what they do. Your day will come when it comes, but you can still minimize the risk by being conservative... only you can say what 'conservative' means. Stay safe bro.
Cheers (despite the doom and gloom haha!),
Erik.
I guess that was to be expected. Damn, until I can convince some of my lazy, non adventurous friends to go out with me i guess ill have to stick to snorkeling lol.
So that brings me to another question, what is the separation line between freediving and snorkeling? I was thinking no deeper than 10-15 feet and less than 1 minute? It seems like even with decent snorkeling fins (as in not long-bladed), intended snorkeling can become dangerous if you get over-zealous..
So that brings me to another question, what is the separation line between freediving and snorkeling? I was thinking no deeper than 10-15 feet and less than 1 minute? It seems like even with decent snorkeling fins (as in not long-bladed), intended snorkeling can become dangerous if you get over-zealous..
I wouldn't say never freedive alone, but just keep it real. I'd never get in the water otherwise 8^(
I think that as soon as you hold your breath and descend, you are no longer a snorkeller haha!
But I still tell people that I'm a snorkeller as 'freediving' takes too long to explain.
I think that as soon as you hold your breath and descend, you are no longer a snorkeller haha!
But I still tell people that I'm a snorkeller as 'freediving' takes too long to explain.
there was a few interesting posts recently from navy documents (bad memory here) indicating how exponentially much greater the risk of blackout becomes over 1 min downtime. if you are by yourself, limit to that. It is very impractical to say "don't dive alone" though, as we all, in some form or another do it. but, as all above say, 2 to 3 mins. down time, alone, and you'll die before the years done..
Rest of it's already commented and discussed many many times before, but I will just second Ulf that 2-3 minutes is not "conservative" even for an experienced diver. It is in fact a very decent bottom time and I would definitely not recommend such dives without active supervision (from which there is a distinction to "just being in the water with a buddy").
Once I was been at a static competition. There was a guy who announced a 5 min static and he often had done it in the past. At this competition he got a BO in less then one minute!
So even I you feel yourself save with a 2-3 minutes breathhold, you should never do it without a partner.
I think that one of the hardest parts to learn at freediving is to follow this rule!
Concerning snorkeling and the danger of it, this could be of interest, too:
eMJA: Edmonds & Walker, Snorkelling deaths in Australia, 1987-1996
So even I you feel yourself save with a 2-3 minutes breathhold, you should never do it without a partner.
I think that one of the hardest parts to learn at freediving is to follow this rule!
Concerning snorkeling and the danger of it, this could be of interest, too:
eMJA: Edmonds & Walker, Snorkelling deaths in Australia, 1987-1996
I second the opinions of Ulf and Jome. 2-3 minutes in depth (it means with effort, not static) is not conservative at all. It is rather a performance on the edge of possibilities - most dynamic and depth dives of top competitors do not take more than that, and not so rarely they end in a samba or blackout (fortunately in safe supervised environment).
If you feel a 2-3 minutes dive as conservative, then I suppose it is relatively comfortable without hard pushing, or without strong contractions. In such case I suspect you hyperventilate rather strongly before the dive. And no, hyperventilation is not only "fire breathing" as many incorrectly think. It is any type of breathing above normal, removing CO2 from your body. It includes deep "relaxed" breathing, purges, and other "breath-up" methods which are mostly just a synonym for hyperventilation.
So if you achieve your 2-3 minutes dives in 20-30 feet thanks to "breath-up", then you were/are much closer to death than you ever want to admit. The low CO2 removes the urge to breath, so you come into the deadly zone of hypoxia without even noticing it. And when you then start ascending, the depressurizing effect suddenly drops the oxygen level in your blood even more quickly, and you can experience so called Shallow Water Blackout quite possibly without any previous warning at all.
Definitely avoid any hyperventilation, and keep the dives in really conservative limits, when diving alone. It may be one minute but also considerably less under conditions. There are also many threads here at DB about safety measures when diving alone. Many such tips are listed for example in this thread: http://forums.deeperblue.net/safety/71952-new-safety-protocol-loosen-weight-belt-remove-mask.html
If you feel a 2-3 minutes dive as conservative, then I suppose it is relatively comfortable without hard pushing, or without strong contractions. In such case I suspect you hyperventilate rather strongly before the dive. And no, hyperventilation is not only "fire breathing" as many incorrectly think. It is any type of breathing above normal, removing CO2 from your body. It includes deep "relaxed" breathing, purges, and other "breath-up" methods which are mostly just a synonym for hyperventilation.
So if you achieve your 2-3 minutes dives in 20-30 feet thanks to "breath-up", then you were/are much closer to death than you ever want to admit. The low CO2 removes the urge to breath, so you come into the deadly zone of hypoxia without even noticing it. And when you then start ascending, the depressurizing effect suddenly drops the oxygen level in your blood even more quickly, and you can experience so called Shallow Water Blackout quite possibly without any previous warning at all.
Definitely avoid any hyperventilation, and keep the dives in really conservative limits, when diving alone. It may be one minute but also considerably less under conditions. There are also many threads here at DB about safety measures when diving alone. Many such tips are listed for example in this thread: http://forums.deeperblue.net/safety/71952-new-safety-protocol-loosen-weight-belt-remove-mask.html
the unsettling thing about that story is that it was a very experienced diver, diving well within his capabilities, using accepted and "safe" practices for solo-diving (e.g., proper breathe-up technique and long rest-duration between dives). basically, the freediver experienced a nasty SWB out of the blue, while not making any obvious "mistakes" to cause the blackout (e.g., pushing too hard, going too deep, staying longer than usual, lack of sleep, drinking the night before, dehydration). anyway let me add a couple more useful links.
two additional accounts of SWB:
http://forums.deeperblue.net/safety/66420-my-shallow-water-blackout-nightmare.html
http://forums.deeperblue.net/freedi...ntimate-account-our-most-dangerous-enemy.html
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http://forums.deeperblue.net/safety/68233-freediving-death.html
"freeding death" - very good discussion, including: an account of the death of a spearfisherman, a discussion of some of the risks involved in freediving, and then a lengthy discussion by some very experienced divers on the issue of solo-freediving and possible safety protocols.
all of them make for very sobering reading and i highly recommend them to everyone.
cheers,
sean
vancouver, canada
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To Jome's point re: a trained buddy. If you read the "Lessons learned. . ." thread, take note, if I had not just taken the PFI course with its emphasis on safety, Unirdna wouldn't be around today, because I certainly would not have seen him BO. Be a shame to lose such a good dive buddy, even if he is a young twerp.
Connor
Connor
Geesh! Cornholio, thanks for sharing that story. I think being human, we tend to get more and more confident as things go smoothly.......until something does go wrong. For freediving, the price of "something goes wrong" is simply to high. For other sports, it may be breaking a leg, or dislocating a shoulder, but not this. It's truly sobering.
Question since we're on this topic : I sometimes train dynamic apnea alone in my pool. I have two dive buddies I train with weekly for static and proper target DYF. But for training on technique of finning etc, I do it in my 25m pool alone. Now, what's considered safe? I only do 25 apnea laps although on most days, 50m is comfortalbe. Is that alright? As someone says, it's not always practical to not dive alone. But what's a safe way to train for dynamic alone if there is any?
Question since we're on this topic : I sometimes train dynamic apnea alone in my pool. I have two dive buddies I train with weekly for static and proper target DYF. But for training on technique of finning etc, I do it in my 25m pool alone. Now, what's considered safe? I only do 25 apnea laps although on most days, 50m is comfortalbe. Is that alright? As someone says, it's not always practical to not dive alone. But what's a safe way to train for dynamic alone if there is any?
Adelenelynch there have been many threads previously started around pool training and the general gist of them is nothing is ever foolproof or completely safe.
There is a always a slim possibility that even sticking to a very conservative and known regime well within your limits that factors you were unaware of could potentially lead to you B/O.
Another problem with pool training (not so much your case) is that if something does go wrong, it often impacts all free divers practicing at the pool.
All the usual rules apply regarding hyperventilation or unusual breath-up applies (as in don't do it), if I were you, and had the time and opportunity when I could train with buddies like you stated I would just train with them.
It comes down to how much risk you're willing to take and a large amount of common sense. There is no concrete answer for 'is that alright?' for you, it may well be. Just as easily though, it could be your undoing.
You have to realize just because it was fine yesterday or the dive before doesn't dictate that it will be fine this time around. Too many variables to be completely certain of anything, which is why people have buddies to account for that time when it isn't ok.
I'm usually a lurker here, but i've read quite a lot of threads on this sort of thing. It's usually agreed to be fairly bad practice, but for some people who have no other alternative and have read up on all the potential issues they can choose to do it as a responsible adult if they wish.
If you must, surely take all precautions as is realistically possible.
Guidelines vary but they're always stick to very conservative distances/times, have long correct (no moving etc) rest periods (i'd take my sweet time if I owned the pool, as you do) and never dive if you've been sick or are even slightly off feeling. Don't work to goals/targets but rather what signals your body is telling you. I'm not sure if it would be worth having but a blood oxy saturation tool might be a worthy investment to ensure your stats are just the same as after the previous rest period? (it probably isn't nearly that simple however, trux etc would know)
over and above that, go check out what some of the more experienced guys have said. Search will help you there on specifics, but peoples abilities vary so much even those are only a guide.
There is a always a slim possibility that even sticking to a very conservative and known regime well within your limits that factors you were unaware of could potentially lead to you B/O.
Another problem with pool training (not so much your case) is that if something does go wrong, it often impacts all free divers practicing at the pool.
All the usual rules apply regarding hyperventilation or unusual breath-up applies (as in don't do it), if I were you, and had the time and opportunity when I could train with buddies like you stated I would just train with them.
It comes down to how much risk you're willing to take and a large amount of common sense. There is no concrete answer for 'is that alright?' for you, it may well be. Just as easily though, it could be your undoing.
You have to realize just because it was fine yesterday or the dive before doesn't dictate that it will be fine this time around. Too many variables to be completely certain of anything, which is why people have buddies to account for that time when it isn't ok.
I'm usually a lurker here, but i've read quite a lot of threads on this sort of thing. It's usually agreed to be fairly bad practice, but for some people who have no other alternative and have read up on all the potential issues they can choose to do it as a responsible adult if they wish.
If you must, surely take all precautions as is realistically possible.
Guidelines vary but they're always stick to very conservative distances/times, have long correct (no moving etc) rest periods (i'd take my sweet time if I owned the pool, as you do) and never dive if you've been sick or are even slightly off feeling. Don't work to goals/targets but rather what signals your body is telling you. I'm not sure if it would be worth having but a blood oxy saturation tool might be a worthy investment to ensure your stats are just the same as after the previous rest period? (it probably isn't nearly that simple however, trux etc would know)
over and above that, go check out what some of the more experienced guys have said. Search will help you there on specifics, but peoples abilities vary so much even those are only a guide.
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i spearfish alone and always have SWB at the back of my mind. im a sorkel instructor and i must teach this stuff. ie, the dangers of SWB and not to dive alone. its real convenient for me to dive alone but i never stay below for more than 45 sec and restrict myself to depths of 30 ft for fear of a BO alone.
I know it could still happen at any time but we still do it because of the enjoyment we get from it.
I have never experienced SWB. anybody here ever experienced one??
I know it could still happen at any time but we still do it because of the enjoyment we get from it.
I have never experienced SWB. anybody here ever experienced one??
Well, SWB is rather common during freediving competitions, when athletes push the limits, so many competitive freedivers indeed experienced BO either directly or as witnesses. That's under relatively safe conditions though - with safety divers, lanyards, counterweight, and usually also a medicine doctor with CPR equipment present.
Otherwise for reports of SWB during spearfishing or recreational freediving, please be sure to check out the links mentioned above (copied below).
Lessons learned - a SWB Story
my shallow water blackout nightmare
Lessons learned in the Bahamas - An intimate account of our most dangerous enemy.
Freediving Death...