Some doubts about apnea trainning

[IanCaio]

Hello guys,

I've been looking up about apnea trainning for a while, didn't do it constantly (with tables) until the last 7 days, but I would try some breath holds once in a while. When I first started (a good few months ago) 1 minute seemed like a big deal. Now my personal record is around 3 minutes on static (2 days ago I got close to it again, making 2:50s).

The last 7 days I've been trainning with CO2 tables, since I think my CO2 tolerance is something that limitates me and something I need a lot for my purposes (surfing bigger waves). Since the beggining of this year, I've been keeping track of my trainning through a diary (a way I found of not giving up, and always doing something everyday). I was starting over, so I thought it would be wise to start slowly: First day I did a CO2 table (from 2min until 15s of breathing time, decreasing 15s each) of 1min breath hold. Increased to 1:30 the second day and am currently on 1:45.

The thing is that I don't think I'm going past the burning feeling much further (maybe a little) but instead, the feeling starts a little later. So I was wondering, from you all that practice for a longer time, does CO2 tolerance means you will lower that strong burning urge feeling or that you will know how to deal with it?
I plan on increasing time today, since yesterday it was quite easily to do the 1:45 CO2 table.

Also some things I need to ask:
-I don't know if my breath holding technique is right, I usually feel the back of my tongue is having a role at keeping the air contained, and once in a while I feel a little bit of air (really little) go out on the back of my throat, having to swallow it or find a way to get it out. Is this something that will stop happening with practice, with maybe some strenghtening of the throat? Or should I look up at the technique to correct it?

-After each breath-hold on the CO2 table, I do about 5 deep and a little faster breaths, to recover. I was worried this could be hyperventilating me, and being the reason why those tables were getting easier. I know I shouldn't ever hyperventilate, so should I avoid making those deep first 5 breaths? Are they enough to hyperventilate and maybe "cheat" the CO2 table?

-Finally, I've readed in a topic here (https://forums.deeperblue.com/threads/dry-apnea-safety.69746/) about dry apnea safety. Since I don't have a buddy yet, that's pretty much the trainning I'm doing: Dry static apnea. There's a line where it says: "Do not do training which causes unusual heart rates or arrythmia.". Part of my breath holding technique is about tricking my body into lowering heart rate. I usually keep my hand at my chest, to know the current heart rate, and try to imagine it's bumping a little slower. It might be some psychological effect, or maybe I'm actually managing to slow my heart beat, but it seems to work sometimes. Would that be some sort of arrythmia? Is it dangerous to keep this practice?

I'm sorry about the long text, I never had some expert to teach me about freediving techniques, so all I know is basically from internet research.
Thanks!

 

[J Campbell]

Yes, the point of CO2 training is to teach you to "accept" the discomfort of breath holds and learn to mentally work your way through it. Familiarity makes it easier so practice helps. But tables will not make the discomfort go away. Remember, breath holding does not actually "hurt" - it just creates a strong urge that you can learn to accept and ignore. Good breath holders can hold to the point of blackout - not that this is necessarily a good thing to do!
No, you really should not hyperventilate or do heavy recovery breathing between holds on a CO2 table. By doing that you are just blowing off the CO2 that you have worked so hard to accumulate.
I do "1-breath" CO2 tables. Like this: get relaxed for a few minutes, inhale - hold breath for 1:40, 1 exhale followed by 1 inhale, hold again for 1:40, exhale- inhale- hold etc. etc. I do this for 8 cycles - that's right only 8 breaths in 13 minutes. Of course you should adjust the 1:40 up/down to match your capabilities.

 

[IanCaio]

Thanks for the reply Mark,
I was a little worried this could be the case. So in the end, I probably didn't improve my CO2 tolerance that much, but actually removed the CO2 before it build up a lot..

I tried to repeat the 1:45 CO2 table, without the recovery breaths (Inevitably I'd breath a little deeper the first time, but I'd try to go back to a normal breathing pattern as soon as possible and finally do a 75% inhale, 100% exhale, 100% inhale and hold) and it was indeed much harder. I could complete it, but the last 2 holds (after 30s and 15s of breath time) were quite hard. I'll from now on do my tables this way, maybe I'll see some improvement in my CO2 tolerance.

I'll also add those 8 cycles to my trainning. I tried them with 1 minute hold, but I didn't manage to get past the 6th cycle (I struggled really hard to finish the 6th cycle, but after it I breathed more then once, and ended up aborting the last two. It was quite disappointing..). Maybe I should tune it down even more for say, 45s hold.

I'm also aprehensive about the transition from dry to water apnea. Until I find a buddy, or even a freediving course, I won't risk trying on holds on water. They say it's easier on water, because of the mammalian dive reflex, but I guess I've a psychological factor on water, usually wanting to surface sooner (maybe it's just a confidence issue, because I didn't train on it enough). But something to worry about later.

 

[IanCaio]

I've tried the 8 cycles with a lower time (45s) and it was a lot easier, so I might be looking at a number between 45s-60s as a starter.
Another thing I thought about adding to my routine (actually, something to do during the day, not actually on a training session) is to inhale, hold 1 second, exhale, hold 10 seconds and repeat until the burning feeling starts, and gradually trying to extend the time doing the exercise.

I'm starting to think I don't have much CO2 tolerance, maybe my 3 minute breath hold personal record was more of a O2 conservation than CO2 toleration. Something I noticed for example, is that when I try a residual volume apnea (full exhale and hold), I start getting that strong urge to breath really fast, and can't make a substantial time (not even going to write it here!).

Well, I'm not giving up, going to keep doing my tables. Hopefully I'll get better.

By the way, any tips about the air holding technique, for avoiding small air release? And the heart rate controlling, nothing dangerous with doing it? (I got a little confused with the arrythmia safety tip)

 

[J Campbell]

If you did a lot of heavy breathe-up or hyperventilation before your 3 minute breath hold then that would definitely make it easier. But safe freediving practice dictates that you should not hyperventilate so you should learn to do proper relaxed breathe-ups. With good relaxation and practice you should be able to do 3 minutes again, probably more.
Doing half-lung and residual volume holds is more of an advanced technique and will definitely bring on the urge to breath earlier - so don't worry about your results there.
In your previous email you said --> "I could complete it, but the last 2 holds (after 30s and 15s of breath time) were quite hard."
This is what you want - the end of a CO2 table should be "hard" - the idea is that after a lot of practice you train your mind to accept and enjoy the hard part
I can't really help you on the problem of air release into your mouth. When I dive my tongue is normally pressed against the roof of my mouth and my epiglottis is closed.
With the arrythmia issue, I'm not an expert on this, but if you have known arrythmia issues or other heart problems I would ask your doctor about you doing breath holds and dives. But I do know from reading these forums that deep dives and doing long breath holds does indeed affect your heart - slows it down primarily. Having low oxygen and high CO2 also affects your heart (and brain). But if you are healthy this should not be a problem- millions of freedivers do it!

 

[IanCaio]

Mark, thanks again for the reply!

The 3 (or a little more) minute hold was a long time ago, but this last 2:50 was done few days ago. I did some relaxing (slow breaths, maybe a little deeper) but I don't think I hyperventilated. I do always make the 70%inhale, 100%exhale, 100%inhale before each breath hold. A few months ago I found a website (http://freediveuk.com/) that had some good info on the blog section and learned the dangers of hyperventilating. Before that I might have done it a few times (5 fast breaths before the hold), but since I learned that I try to avoid it.

If the goal of the CO2 table is making you confortable with that feeling, should I keep a table time constant after I complete it for a while? Or should I always increase time after completing a table, even if I can't manage to finish it?

I believe my tongue is in the same position you mentioned when I'm holding my breath. The air released is really a small amount, but maybe with time I'll figure a way to keep it tighter.

I never had any heart condition, but maybe I could go to a doctor and get checked (those heart monitoring exercise tests) since I'm planning on taking this training seriously!

Didn't do any training yesterday, because I had to make some blood exams and I couldn't do any exercise before it (guess holding your breath until you're blue counts as exercise! ). Might do a CO2 table today if I feel less overloaded later, had some busy and a bit stressing two days (admission process, exams and looking for a place to move to).

Have a great day!

 

[J Campbell]

Here's' the thing about hyperventilation. If you are at rest, say sitting in a chair reading a book and not even thinking about your breathing then that would be a normal baseline respiration. So if you then started to inhale and/or exhale any deeper or faster then could be said to be hyperventilating. So although freedivers always say the you should not hyperventilate, if you watch them most are doing a bit of deeper breathing - no huffing and puffing, just slower relaxed deep breaths. When I breathe-up I take a slightly fuller inhale than normal breathing but not really straining my chest at all. And then on the exhale I just let the elasticity of my chest and ribs naturally squeeze the air out. Then just before the dive I do 2 or 3 deeper inhales and gently squeeze my lower abs to assist on the exhale - but again not at all violently - keeping relaxed is important. If you are huffing and puffing then you are actually burning up oxygen and tiring yourself out.
After lots of breath holds and practice you will get a feel for what feels good and relaxed and what is too much. You should never feel dizzy or feel any numbness during a breathe-up.
On CO2 tables- after you have done a table for several sessions and completed it each time, the you should make the table just a bit harder - then tackle that table - repeat. Of course there is a limit to this! Once you become a good diver you will just do tables to maintain your skill level.
I'm not sure how a breath hold session would affect a blood test - but I agree that it probably is wise to not do it.

 

[IanCaio]

Great! I'll keep the 1:45 CO2 table for a while, getting used to it, and then increase time.

I'll keep checking my preparation breathing, but I think during preparation I'm mostly trying to relax, slow down my heart rate and getting any thoughts of the difficulties ahead away. I don't breath deep enough to make effort with my chest muscles and rib cage until the last breath. No dizzyness during breath-up so far, think it's a good sign

Thanks for all the help Mark!

 

[ashirk]

This is interesting thread as I'm also new and just started doing more specific training. I had never heard of 1-breath C02 tables so that's new to me.

To start with I have been basically following CO2 tables from a couple different sources. One I found here on this site:
- https://forums.deeperblue.com/threads/how-to-start-freediving.64959/
- The other is the Manual of Freediving.

Compared to the 1-breath mentioned by Mark these tables have longer ventilation or rest periods. So for example it goes something like:
++++++
1. static hold 1' --> ventilate 2' 30"
2. static hold 1' --> ventilate 2' 20"
...
9. static hold 1' --> ventilate 1' 50"
++++++

Mark did you ever do these kinds of tables and did you find that they didn't work as well as 1-breath tables?

 

[IanCaio]

Hey Ashirk,

I do one of those tables as well, starting with 2 minutes ventilating, decreasing 15 seconds until the ventilating time gets to 15 seconds. I think it's more beginner friendly because it builds up the CO2 slowly, so you are a little used to it by the time you get to the real deal (the end of the table, when it gets harder). The 1-breath CO2 table seems like a quicker exercise, but also a little harder because the CO2 builds up really quickly.
I'm trying to do both, still figuring out the 1-breath hold time.

Better waiting for Mark's answer though, he will advise you better!

 

[J Campbell]

Hey Ashirk, it's me John (alias Mark), the guy you are going to meet in Annapolis.
Those CO2 tables you are doing are conventional tables that you read about everywhere. I have done them in the past. Once I read about the 1-breath tables and tried them I was hooked - faster and more productive. In my opinion the conventional tables are sort of a waste time - the first few holds are easy and then you get way to much recovery time in between - during those long rest periods you just blow off all the CO2 that you have built up. The point of CO2 tables is to build a high level of CO2 in your blood and learn how to mentally deal with it. The 1-breath tables get you there fast. They are also easy to time, no need for a complicated table and signaling app.
They sound impossible (what? I don't get ANY rest?) - but in reality when you do a full exhale and then suck in a lungful of fresh you get immediate temporary relief - although for the last couple of cycles the relief is pretty short.
When I first did these I didn't have any baseline so I just picked 1 min and found that it was fairly easy to do 8 cycles. So I added some and worked up to 1:30 after a few sessions. I'm now doing 1:40 but don't always complete the whole cycle of 8 breath holds.
A note on how I time these - 1 cycle includes the hold period and the inhale/exhale. This makes it easy to time because you just have to set a signal to beep every 1:40 (in my case). When the beep goes off, I do a deep exhale followed by a deep inhale, then hold until the next beep - exhale-inhale-hold...beep - repeat. No need to worry about how long the exhale/inhale should be - just do that however is comfortable for you - the point being that you only breathe once per cycle.
Edit - a slow and controlled exhale and inhale is best because you need to keep relaxed and in control - that is what freediving is all about.

 

[Kray]

I thought CO2 is all about Co2 tolerance. So instead of timing it, maybe we can save more time by just hold and start counting the contraction. For example, doing 3 sets of 30 contractions per round.

 

[J Campbell]

Kray, I've read about doing those type of CO2 tables also. I should try them - my problem being that I don't reliably get contractions. I've never had 30 contractions in a single breath hold.

 

[ashirk]

Hey guys, yeah this is good info. I'm starting to better understand how to perform the CO2 tables I think, thank you for the clarifications. I am beginning to think the conventional CO2 tables are a little too conservative, and will start going more towards the 1-breath technique.
I do have a questions about contractions. Truth is I don't know what a contraction feels like. I've held my breath to the point of being very uncomfortable and "gasping" for air, but I never thought or recognized any sensation as a contraction. I just felt "starved" for air. I understand contractions occur in the diaphragm muscle, but I don't even know if I get them.

 

[J Campbell]

You may be one of those that don't get contractions. Some people don't get them - I only get mild slow ones - not the rapid fire ones that some describe. And they don't really bother me. Instead I get a VERY STRONG URGE TO BREATHE - burning in my lungs/chest - a feeling that I MUST breathe NOW. I have read a few times that people who don't get contractions do eventually get them after a lot of freedive experience.

 

[IanCaio]

I think I'm on the "no contractions" team, I have some muscular movements on my abdomen, but not like a pulse or a contraction. I can't affirm I don't have them because maybe I just didn't go far enough to have one. I do feel this big urge to breath described by Mark and this burning feeling.
On a residual volume static, which I managed to hold 45s (my personal record on this type of hold, still bad I know!), I also feel some bad sensation on my glotis, probably due to the negative pressure, a sensation that I'm about to choke. Maybe it's normal on those holds.

I've seem a guy describing a 5:30 minute hold on a website once, but sadly never found it again. It was really cool, he described the feelings he had during it. Until 1:30 he had no urge to breath, and then up 3:30 minutes the most hard part of the hold, with contractions and big urge of breathing. Then the wierd part: after those 3:30 minutes, he said the urge to breath was gone, to the point that he had to open his eyes to check for low O2 signals (because he could easily hold his breath at this point further than he should), with long paced contractions and a really, really low heart rate.
Any experienced divers can confirm this peaceful point after the big struggle at long breath holds? Just curious about it

 

[J Campbell]

I occasionally have an "easy" breath hold whereby I can go much longer into the hold feeling perfectly blissful, but I have never reached the point of blackout- there is always some struggle at the end. I just wish I knew how to repeat those special holds.

 

[IanCaio]

I think after all, your mindset at the moment really makes a difference.

For example, last few days I've been having trouble to control my heart rate, feeling the CO2 effects earlier. I finished the 8 cycles of 1 breath and 1 minute hold once a while ago, with higher than medium difficulty, but yesterday I got stuck at the 6th cycle again. I've been doing CO2 tables everyday for the last 18 days though (except for 3 days maybe), so I think I might been hitting a point of stress, also related to the changes going on right now.
I can see some improvement since I started, but failing at a table or drill is a little frustrating. At least I made a 3 minute breath hold yesterday (reaching my old record again) to make me go to bed less upset about it. I decided to take maybe a 2 days break of the CO2 tables and make some aerobic training, then later go back to the CO2 tolerance training.

By the way, does anyone also feel a little "heat" in the face when holding for too long after the CO2 effects begin? I begin feeling it, like the skin in my face getting a little hotter, after I started holding a little further.

 

[J Campbell]

Glad you made it back to 3 mins! Not sure about the heat in the face, but it is common to get warm during a long breath hold. When you stop breathing your body still metabolizes and generates heat - but since you are not moving air in and out of your lungs you lose the ability to dump heat in exhales so the heat is retained inside you and builds up. Especially in a hot environment or room- you may actually sweat a bit!

 

[IanCaio]

Thanks Mark!

I took a break of 3 days on apnea training, because of dificulties in relaxing and controlling heart rate. On those 3 days I did weight lifting, balance and aerobic training on a treadmill. Then I did the 1:50 minutes CO2 table again yesterday, and it was considerably easier than last time. Had some struggle on the last stage, which as you said is expected on a CO2 table, but found quite easier to relax and lower heart rate, feeling the CO2 accumulation effects later on the table (meaning I probably lowered the O2 consuming during the holds). Had those results even after a stressful day, and with a few minor distractions during the drill (my parents dog trying to dive a hole in my bed! ).

If it's ok, I think I'll use this post to talk about my advances on training and maybe some doubts I have along the way