Spearfishing Blackout On Video!!!!

[apneaboy]

Azapas points are good.

With a 5mm suit the buoyancy changes are dramatic maybe consider weighting yourself to be neutral deeper for a free ride back up in the top part of the dive.

3 secs in 10 secs out will reduce your CO2 quite considerably. Blowing off CO2 will make the dive feel easier, make contractions come later and make you black out earlier. Read up on the Bohr effect on here. Ironically it seems the longer surface intervals may have been part of the problem as your breath up is a CO2 purge method, quite accidently.

I would start to consider how you feel prior to the dive. You said you had no contractions on the way up so you are considering factors like leg burn and contractions I would imagine on ascent. Before the dive I consider if I am starting to get any tingling in the extremities on the breath up (that is bad), how I feel physically and mentally and do a once over of my body and mind. For me diving tired (lack of sleep) does affect my deep dives badly. (It seems to help my statics though)

Get some carbs in your pre dive diet.

My 2 cents, bye bye
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[apneaboy]

Oh one other point. I know you have never done a course and now feel like maybe you have been diving long enough not to benefit but I would honestly consider finding someone who has a good reputation you can get to and do a course.

I would put a lot of money on the fact you would learn a few things, one of which might help your buddy as well as you.

Dive safe mate
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[azapa]

Hello Tomas

I think you may have not understood my points too well, or I did not explain them clearly.

In the first point, regarding recovering the fish, it is something one does when there is no urgency to breathe. I am sure at the moment of grabbing the fish the diver felt no danger, anxiety to breathe etc. He did it because he felt too comfortable. Continuing this point, from a spearo point of view, I often have to grab fish, if not they hole up, or wrap themselves around weed. I will only do this if I am feeling ok, otherwise, let it tangle. The problem is to know ones self, and to have a reliable breathe up.

Regarding the second point, I declare myself a candidate, not because its cool, and not because I don't want to see my family again, but because I admit to diving alone. Or at least, I often enter the water with some buddies, but within seconds all are spread out to the point of being no practical help. It sucks. I hate it. More every day.


I have been "lucky" enough to see more real blackouts than many see in a lifetime, literally dozens and dozens, as a lead safety diver, and have performed many real rescues. I am admitting here, that despite that, I am stupid enough to dive alone, because "i think" that I know myself well enough. No dice.

Take care.

I beg to differ. It definetly consumes oxigens and he himself stated he "I NEVER EVER DO". I know many spearos do that but hey, many spearos go hunting on their own and guess what? That haven't really saved too many lives in case of BO.

Being a candidate on such an election is as cool as blacking out because showing off on camera while diving. BOs can happen, especially when fishing and going over your limit because of it, find a buddy and dive safely. I know i know, less fish, no fun yadiyadiyada, it's your call at the end.
Peace.

Thomas

 

[ThomasB]

Hello Tomas

I think you may have not understood my points too well, or I did not explain them clearly.

In the first point, regarding recovering the fish, it is something one does when there is no urgency to breathe. I am sure at the moment of grabbing the fish the diver felt no danger, anxiety to breathe etc. He did it because he felt too comfortable. Continuing this point, from a spearo point of view, I often have to grab fish, if not they hole up, or wrap themselves around weed. I will only do this if I am feeling ok, otherwise, let it tangle. The problem is to know ones self, and to have a reliable breathe up.

Regarding the second point, I declare myself a candidate, not because its cool, and not because I don't want to see my family again, but because I admit to diving alone. Or at least, I often enter the water with some buddies, but within seconds all are spread out to the point of being no practical help. It sucks. I hate it. More every day.


I have been "lucky" enough to see more real blackouts than many see in a lifetime, literally dozens and dozens, as a lead safety diver, and have performed many real rescues. I am admitting here, that despite that, I am stupid enough to dive alone, because "i think" that I know myself well enough. No dice.

Take care.

Hi Azapa,

i think i understood everything correctly but maybe i came out the wrong way. The only thing i believe it's wrong it's your initial assumption that recovering the fish has nothing to do with the blackout while i believe it definetely has something to do with it, since it consumed a lot of oxigen in the "chase" and in the "struggle" , something he never did before. You reply saying: "well everyone does that, it's a spearo thing" and i know that, as far as a wannabe spearo knows stuff like that, but it doesn't change the fact that consuming oxigen when it's not needed it's not the best way to end up a freedive, and that comes out of the mouth of someone doing the AA first course these days .
In this case, really there was no need to do that, as far as i can see, but he did it, for apparently no reasons, which some believes was the camera recording him and that had an impact for sure on his oxigen reserve, we can't deny that.
Then again, i'm sorry if i came out a bit too much sarcastic, didn't mean to offend you in any way, just my own personal way of expressing myself.

Take care and dive safely.

Thomas

 

[cdavis]

Blackout:

I'm very curious how much memory time you lost. Looking at the vid, its 5-8 seconds (depending on when I start counting)from the fish giving you a hard time to exhibiting BO symptoms. Do you remember how close you were to the bottom or maybe have an estimate of how long you remember the fish struggling?

Is it possible you caught a lungfull or two of exhaust gas from the engine?

Connor

 

[SEAREN]

Blackout:

Is it possible you caught a lungfull or two of exhaust gas from the engine?

Connor

There was no engine exhaust that I recall. I normally make the boat stay down wind for just that reason and if there was any blowing in our direction the boat captain would have gotten an earful.

 

[strangelove]

Blackout

Thanks for sharing, besides the blackout, like you've mention probably due to the camera (I had mention that possibility on my initial post), you show great fishing and diving skills.
If any thing the time your friend is taping you is the time to do silly things like grabing the fish.

 

[SEAREN]

I think you all are missing the point by trying to make an excuse for why this happened. It doesn't matter!! It could have happened with him not going after the fish. If you're looking for an excuse you're all in denial. A blackout can happen to a person at any moment without any out of the ordinary warnings! Do not fool yourselves! Diving by yourself is like playing Russian roulette. If you dive long enough you will find yourself in the same position. Now, it's up to you whether or not you will be smart enough to be prepared.

 

[strangelove]

I guess, I am going to stay at home and never dive again.

 

[Blackout]

Hi Ren,

I agree 100% with your point about solo diving and being prepared but there is also benefit to be gained by discussing and critiquing the dive. Too much weight, hyperventilating, extending dives, exhaust fumes...these are all great points to consider for future adventures and may decrease the likelihood of another blackout or even close call.

For example, the post above about fumes made me reconsider the practice of being towed behind the exhaust port for 8 minutes even though we were greater than 50' behind. I'm not saying that caused the blackout, probably had nothing to do with it, but I personally won't do that again just as sure as I'll be taking a few pounds off the weightbelt.

 

[cdavis]

Ditto for analysis. I'm addicted to buddy diving(see "Beware of Buddy diving" in freediving stories) and get uncomfortable diving with divers who aren't, but I never want to see another B0 in person and want to know as much as possible to minimize the chance. The video is a great help, and the blow by blow description, thanks to both of you. I've made sure several buddies of mine watched it.

Exhaust fumes(C0) worry me, because I don't have much feel for how much is a problem. We tow off the dive platform, pretty much upwind of the fumes(outdrive boat), but getting some is inevitable. The damnable thing about C0 is, any you get is with you for the rest of the day, so its cumulative and directly reduces your safe time underwater with almost no warning signs. Nasty stuff.

Connor

 

[Blackout]

I'm very curious how much memory time you lost. Looking at the vid, its 5-8 seconds (depending on when I start counting)from the fish giving you a hard time to exhibiting BO symptoms. Do you remember how close you were to the bottom or maybe have an estimate of how long you remember the fish struggling?

I really couldn't say how high in the water column I was. Wild guess, I'd say just before the first exhale.

 

[Salehthefish]

This thread was excellent though some technical info i am not aware of it due to the lack of knowledge in free diving but still many lessons can be taken from this story...

For losing confidence i am not sure how you are feeling now because i never had this problem and i hope no one will face it, and if someone face it to have good buddies as yours. If we want to think about it we may stay at home and like this we will be safe but who will give us the joyful moments that we have underwater? Can we do it in the jacuzzi? Life is challenging and everyday we are fighting our fears in various manners locations... But since we are human being we are still fighting this fear. If we take in consideration what in the sea we can say that there are snakes sharks and many harmful things and any accident can be happen this is the same if you work in office simple example i saw one guy fell down from the stairs while he is going down!!! What i mean to say is that this story taught us to take all the protective cases and increase the factor of safety since it is related to human life the most valuable thing on this planet!!!

Do not give it up one or two weeks you will forget about this whole story dive better and keep the good buddy

 

[cdavis]

Thanks Blackout. The more detail the better. You might like to look over the thread "Lessons learned in the Bahamas- and intimate account of our most dangerous enemy" from a few years ago. Its different, but there are some similarities. Good example of how an accumulation of things can get us into trouble.

Very interesting that you had no warning, at least up to no more than 4-5 seconds before BO. Was the B0 dive immediately after the tow? If so, given my understanding of the physiology, you must have blown off a lot of C02 and were starting the dive too low. The long surface interval combined with about a 4 breath/minute cycle of fairly full breaths would be enough to reduce C02 levels not just in the blood, but also in other body fluids and tissues. This provides a reservoir for co2 to be stored in and delays acidification of the blood, contractions, urge to breathe, etc.

You might want to use the search function to look at some of the various breathup styles discussed on the forum, particularly the "minimal breathup" idea, I've been using it for exhale diving and it works really well for me, longer dive times, stronger DR and much less chance of blowing off too much C02.

When you say "the shoals", do you mean Rebecca? Been a while, but I've got good memories of that area.

Connor

 

[Blackout]

Thanks Connor, I'll definetly check out those threads. We were at Frying pan Shoals in NC.

Thank you everyone for contributing to this discussion...great insight. I'm signing off so you all have fun, dive safe and watch over your dive buddies...

 

[Fondueset]

here are my thoughts - for what they are worth.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned is that flash of excitement when you see, then spear a fish. I think being involved in an external task - which is also exciting - can definitely take you away from body awareness. Exertion can also mask the desire to breathe. I also noticed blackout's ascent rate is very slow - and became extremely slow when he pulled up next to his gun.

Also - he was operating on minimal sleep. This has quite large effects across the spectrum of physiological variables - from sensitivity to actual capacity - and can also result in running on adrenalin, low blood pressure, low blood sugar etc. etc. (could have been a low blood pressure blackout?)

I haven't been spearing in quite awhile - and mainly do pure freediving and monofin sprints - but I also do dedicated photo dives during which it is very very easy to push the envelope. In my favor is the fact that these are generally low exertion dives - down and up with a monofin - waiting or pulling gently with hands and gliding on the bottom - that I weight on the light side for my depths (neutral at about 20') and that I am nearly always diving in about 30 feet or less - so basically I push off the bottom and start floating.

I try to do a minimum 2 - 1 ratio - so for a 2 minute dive I breathe up for 4 -assuming minimal exertion before that and completely relaxed and passive during breatheup. This is often impossible - cold or rough water - which simply means short dive times. Since I am not spearing I plan my long dives and don't do them if I can't get the right breatheup.

For the deep diving I've done I've been lucky to be in ideal circumstances with extremely competent safety divers. For any dive deeper than about 70' I like to have a fully relaxed 6 minute breatheup - no movement. During this I try to feel my co2 - I only ever get any tingling with extreme hyperventillation but I watch for that slightly light feeling in the head - if I get that I slow my breath way down - maybe even do short holds (my fav time to do short holds, pauses really of about ten seconds - is on the exhale.)
In any case, my breath is very slow in the couple minutes prior to the dive - with the focus on deep relaxation - not deep breathing.

If I feel 'too good' during a dive I figure I've hyperventillated - this is okay in my usual shallow environs but I cut those dives short - always under 90 seconds - usually under a minute.

This may sound odd but I've sort of programmed a 'NO - Surface Now! 'command into my mind - it helps me drop whatever I'm doing when the time comes to go up.

As for us being in denial. I don't find that argument credible. We are all trying to understand every possible variable that may influence whether a blackout happens or not. Not doing this would be subscribing to a sort of superstitious view based on zero information. Alot of us dive alone sometimes, or in less than ideal circumstances with a buddy. Of course we should mitigate our risks by adhering to strict buddy protocol - but this does not mean we are looking for excuses when we examine every possible variable.

 

[Mullins]

Heaps of horizontal swimming on those dives in the video - they're essentially dynamic apneas. Movement on the bottom seems to be a recurrent theme for BOs here in NZ.

 

[johnnybuoy]

I think there were 3 reasons behind your BO.
Fighting the fish at a crucial time, being over weighted and being tired.
On your desent the partial pressure of oxygen is increased providing a favourable transfer of oxygen from the lungs to the blood. This also works the other way, increasing the partial pressure of carbon dioxide in the alveoli, thus slowing the process of carbon dioxide diffusing from the blood into the lungs. Initially arterial carbon dioxide levels rise rapidly, and then the carbon dioxide is actually stored in the tissues, delaying the urge to breathe. But its the ascent, as we all know is when most BO's occur because the lungs re-expand and carbon dioxide levels elevate as it diffuses from the tissues into the blood and then into the lungs. Chemoreceptors in the brain stimulate the urge to breathe with this increase in carbon dioxide. The partial pressure of oxygen drops drastically, reducing the diffusion of any oxygen available from the lungs to the blood. This is where the fighting of the fish started just after overcoming negative buoyancy with too much weight. The stage is then reached where the brain becomes hypoxic, causing unconsciousness.
I may be wrong but these 3 reasons seem to be the most obvious to me.
SWBO's are constantly on my mind as I live in ireland where we have cold and murky waters. In this case a buddy may not be much help as he cannot see you in 1-2m vis. Being tired and apprehensive in these waters can easliy lead to BO but thankfully I have only ever had dizziness after one dive.
The one point I would like to put across is: It doesnt matter how it happens, just remember that no matter how long you have been diving it can happen anytime, anywhere, at any time. Experienced divers are more likely to experience BO's as we become more confident over time.
buddy up and look up SWBO's, treatment, symptoms and how it can be avoided,
Safe diving.
Johnny.​

 

[Mr. X]

Amazing posts, really appreciate you taking the time and trouble to discuss this. So glad to hear that your friends saved you.

...and try to have surface intervals around 2x dive times but sometimes intervals are shorter depending on depth and presence of fish...

The current is running about 1.5 knots so we’re going to drift then get towed back to the start of the ledge and repeat. This is where the video begins.

...For some reason I grab the fish which I NEVER EVER do and start for the surface but still feel fine and don’t sense any danger...

A few things caught my eye, you say you "try" to have surface times around 2x dive times. While I probably do that sometimes, I don't dive anywhere near as deep as you were, nor as long. I usually aim for 3x -- I seem to recall an experienced, trained freediver recommending x3-x4 on the forum some years ago. It takes some will-power to wait that long if you've just seen something interesting.

Sounds like you had additional exertion with the current and pulling the fish up. If the fish was trying to go down or was creating a lot of drag (trigger fish side on is bad, I imagine a grouper with its mouth acting as a parachute might be too). I often grab the fish - sometimes you need to make sure the fish is against the barb/flopper so it won't come off (sometimes you have to open the barb. on euro-spears -- not such an issue with barb-down SA railguns like yours though). I guess in hindsight you'd have left the fish & used the reel to allow yourself to gain the surface before hauling the fish up.

 

[blueface]

Hey, thanks for that feedback, it is very good, and so important. This thread will save some lives.

IMHO there are some points to learn here. I DON'T think grabbing the fish had anything to do with it, and in reference to an earlier poster, this is done to stop the spear falling out, and generally to secure the fish, many spearos do it. It seems to me you were too comfortable in those dives, and also showing off for the camera (with all due respect, I'm sure I would do the same)

Do you normally feel contractions on a dive? Did you this time?

I would imagine the recipe was:
- very good pre dive preparation had you in a strong dive response before you started your session, this was new to you and your body, your normal "timers" were therefore uncalibrated
- you may have over-breathed on the surface, you say 10 minutes on your back. If you breathed just a little faster or deeper than you would whilst watching TV (dumb definition of normal breathing) you would have lowered your C02 levels significantly.
- weighting: you looked heavy to me, lots of weight for that depth, and probably a thin suit?

On the dive itself you had your snorkel out, which is good. Some other dives it was in. This could kill you if you were alone and blacked out. (The reasons are here on DB, too long to explain, just don't do it)

Great story and great save by your buddy. You have made me hate my frequent solo dives yet more. I am a candidate.

I agree with azapa on all points. You should spit out your snorkel (on all dives). Perhaps the hood also created some extra drag. Thanks for sharing your experience and I'm glad you are safe!

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