Ssi scuba instructor cross over- is it a joke???

[OTGav]

No one is going to take freediving courses from these scuba instructors, there are too many great freedivers and world champs teaching and thats where everyone will go, scubies love collecting certifications and this is another merit badge for them to pin on there shirt:t

In Aus Freediving courses are being sold right next to the regulators etc. in the dive shop.

If you've had fun doing scuba courses in the past with a shop, why wouldn't you trust them when go to sell you a freedive course. You may know the instructor, they've taught you before so they get to trade on the exsisting relationship.

At that stage you know very little about the sport, so no real knowledge of what you should/could expect from a good freedive instructor, or if there are other local divers of significant ability teaching in your area.

Cross over students to match the cross over instructors. Courses seem to be well populated round here.........

 

[monkeyhatfork]

I would like to think people are not so clueless, when I found freediving a few years ago it took about 2 minutes on google to find this site, PFI, etc another hour to watch all the world record videos on youtube, then again we dont have the ssi thing here nor aida really, you basically choose between PFI, FII, or William Trubridge so I guess limilted to only good choices

 

[Walrus]

AIDA is not the only organisation that offers good instructor training, it is one of many. Apnea Academy has been around far longer then AIDA has and were the first (I think) to do instructor courses. Both PFI and Martin Stepanek’s FII also offer very good instruction right up to instructor level. I’m also from a Scuba background and to me the organisation you learn from (PADI, SSI, CMAS, NAUI etc) is far less relevant then the experience and knowledge of the instructor themselves.

I’m based in Australia and was one of the earliest freedive instructors here, and no I’m not “certified” by any agency. I have friends that have done SSI courses with Mike and even one an instructor course and it sounds like they got good training knowledge in both the theory & practical. Having said that I do share concerns of the crossover courses, we are now starting to get a lot of freediving instructors here that don’t have very good knowledge or experience as freedivers. A recent course I taught one of the students told me about their experience with an SSI freedive instructor at a dive shop. Not only did the “instructor” not know what they were talking about, but sounded like their ability as a freediver was very limited. I don’t know what sort of experience and training an instructor can give when they themselves are barely beyond the beginner stage. Not to mention credibility, when half the students they teach are far better then them how are the students to take them seriously ?

Over the years I have also had quite a few students that have done courses from other instructors that had learnt nothing about safety or blackout rescue techniques. So in this country choose a freedive course and it will be hit & miss.

There are quite a few good instructors with a lot of experience in Australia and now there seems to be a growing number of instructors with very limited knowledge and experience. My best advice for people looking to do a freedive course is to find out something about the instructor they are learning from. And don’t believe all the claims made by people in person or even in various media, some are misleading to say the least.


Cheers,
Walter

 

[OTGav]

I would like to think people are not so clueless, when I found freediving .......

Guess it depends where you find freediving - at the dive shop while getting a tank fill and having a chat with the DM or instructor you know....

Or through something independant that you go off and hunt info on.

In the 1st one you're getting sold, and that could easily be as far as a search goes.

 

[blue immersion]

HI Everybody i have been reading the subject.
My name is Akim ADHARI i am Freediver Instructor and owner of Blue immersion.
I was interested by this new Program that SSI offer so I decide to do the cross over and after few days what i can say sincerely is that for the first time the freediving has a real chance to grow-up like never before. The organization and the education that offer SSI have all the factors necessary to make it accepted and recognized in the world Diving industry.
The courses,standards and approach of the education are actually the best i have seen in the freediving education of course is not totally complete but the direction that they are taking in a near future will make a sharp Freediving Education.
I was really glad to be part of this course i found more hope in the Evolution of this sport.
I think the cross over of the scubadive instructor is an ingenious idea if i give you the example of kohtao where i give course part of the year.
In this island we had 45000 certifications of scubadiving this year so there is no better than a scuba instructor to promote the Freediving and help for the development of this Sport.
When scuba instructor do the cross over he can only teach the level 1 wich i think and what i see from my experience you don't need to be a krak in freediving to teach the beginner course,we don't transmit them the idea to be a competitor but to learn to enjoy the water safely and properly.SO what you really need is to be a enthusiast and a passionate Freediver and scuba diver are manly good with that.
But trough that in the next few years the world of freediving can extremely grow and all of the negative idea that people have will slowly change to something much positive.
I am really positive with the SSI freediving course and i can really see an other step in the history of the Freediving Education.
regards,
Akim ADHARI
blue-immersion.com
freedivingkohtao.com
blue-immersion.org

 

[peacenluv]

Hi Akim,

Thanks for all the info! You mentioned that you did the crossover to SSI freediving instructor? Is that crossing over from AIDA, or are you already an SSI scuba instructor? Also, where did you take the SSI courses?

Cheers,
Phill

 

[Kars]

Dear Akim,

Can you give us a description of the different student levels as well as instructor levels?

Can you be more specific what you liked and think should be improved?

Can you share your impression on the course materials?

Thanks!

 

[deanspahic]

Akim, Im glad that you enjoyed your SI program, and for someone like yourself who is already an AIDA freediving instructor and diving quite well a crossover program makes sense. For someone who has little or no experience freediving it makes no logical sense at all, and if you believe that these scuba instructor crossover candidates, having very little knowledge of freediving, becoming instructors is a good idea I have to question your understanding of what makes a good instructor. Quantity (45000 scuba instructors) is not synonymous with quality! Further these beginner courses are very important for setting new freedivers out in the right direction and giving them the skills and knowledge that they need to become good, safe divers. I don’t know how you think it is possible for someone to effectively teach these skills and knowledge if they have just learned them themselves. Freediving instructors with this limited level of experience are likely to do more to damage freediving’s reputation than to assist in its promotion as a safe fun sport. The argument that they only get to teach the level one course is not enough to justify granting instructor status to new freedivers, and these are new freedivers! AIDA instructors have a high set of standards and performance requirements that are way above those for this SSI scuba crossover and they only get to teach 2 and 3 star programs until they gain enough experience.

Im tired of this back and forth conversation. I like Kars’s approach to this debate. I would be interested in seeing your responses to the questions he has posed. Further I would like to see a detailed listing of the prerequisites and performance requirements for the SSI scuba instructor crossover posted here as well, I have seen most of them but I would like it if someone else – impartial – would post them here. Then people can decide for themselves if they want to receive training from someone with that level of training and experience.

 

[blue immersion]

I am sorry Dean I can't discuss with you about that because its seems like you are judging the SSI cross over and behind it the value and the SSI system that suppord the courses and allowed a scubadive instructor to teach the basic skills of Freediving.
Don't take it personally but you are judging it with out having even read one of the course of ssi, not even having an idea of out is the standard,what is the value of ssi, to be more clear,all of you have no idea of what is ssi because i guess no one of you is even a SSI Scubadiver,So you coming up with theory and not fact and this can not be taken for serious.
So me i have take my one responsibility to give my point of view and idea of this subject because i have study the SSI standards and Knowledge.
So please gentlemen be as you talking about instructor responsibility,be responsible and get more information about it before condemning the work of an organization,don't be the people who start to read a book from the end.
This will be my last answer until there is somebody who know a bit more about it and tell as about real facts.
And for sure there is few things to change and make it better,different idea from different people can only make it better.(but please get to know SSI before)
Regards,
Akim ADHARI
PS:Contact Freedive Dahab Or SSI to know about it and where you can take the Cross over.
blue-immersion.com
freedivingkohtao.com

 

[trullalla]

dean,
what you are not considering (and i have told you before) is that the ssi instructors showing up at these crossovers should be already freedivers.
if they are not confident freedivers they simply won't pass the requirements, and they will fail the course.
in australia they have been running these courses for 1 year and people have started understanding that if you are not good you shouldn't show up.
as you know we had run our first course in dahab with instructors from all over europe: out of 7 participants 3 people passed.
2 were both aida instructors and ssi instructor, while the other 1 was a ssi instructor with a freediving background.
actually of all the other partticipants, most were ssi representatives who were here only to see the program, how it is run and to know what it is all about (since it was all born in ssi australasia, ssi europe and ssi america had very little idea of the whole freediving project).
there are 3 ssi freediving instructor trainers in the whole world and you know all of them well enough to know that we don't care about the brand, if you are not good enough we don't certify you as an instructor.
you might remember how we always say that if we have a candidates who we wouldn't employ in our center, then it means they are not good enoguh to get certified, and this is still standing, no matter under which brand we are operating
hope it is more clear now.

linda

 

[esom]

Further these beginner courses are very important for setting new freedivers out in the right direction and giving them the skills and knowledge that they need to become good, safe divers.

maybe a little "off piste" again, but its an impotant subject to me and for me it's very much connected to your discussion...

dean you are talking about
"right direction" and "giving skills".

for the first: what is the right direction?
maybe its about defining freediving, at least i hope there is no agreement soon.
So, an important thing i see, what a so called "instructor" (i don't like this naming at all, see second) should be able to do, is to understand the direction the student chooses. and what is necessary here is a mindset which can't be found in the water or in any aida instructor course (saying this whithout having taken one, just a shortcut because you and others are ones).
to say it differently: i think especially a beginner can be lucky if there are many directions and not one true or right. i would be glad if freediving which is so much about ones own definitions and truth could be pioneering the work that has to be done to improve society.

of course there is one important thing... safety! and this must be taken serously. even more as long as the one the student is in the water with, is called "instructor".


for the second- (too) quick
i can't believe that you or anybody can "give skills", it must be found or developed by the student. but if this was true, what to do with this title of an "instructor" and what is the offer in this case and what the payment?
... not easy.

worth to exchange opinions here, i would be glad at least (in another thread of course).

 

[Kars]

Dear Akim,

I understand your need to be given a fair chance to express your knowledge and opinion, without the fear of <premature> judgement and verbal assaults to your person or your education system.

I ask you to read the current stated words as unfortunate expressions of fears and needs. I think these needs and fears are valid, as well as your needs and fears are valid.

Allow me to try to formulate your need and fear, feel free to adjust, supplement and correct them.
- you need to feel listened to.
- you need to feel respected.

My needs:
- I need information to see if I like to become and SSI freedive instructor.
- I need multiple views and experiences to help me decide.
- I need to know how SSI ensures a high quality standard.
- I need to know how SSI ensures a high safety standard.
- I need to know what SSI philosophy is, methods, to see if they reflect my character and fit my goals.

These are my needs and goals, and I hope you choose to help me discover the SSI system.

Love, Courage and Water,

Kars

ps. Thank you Linda for the information and insights given, recognising my and other's needs.

 

[osusim]

Kars, first of all you must be SSI scuba diving instructor. And as we know only ELITE freedivers became SSI freediving instructors rofl

 

[Walrus]

Yes there are Joke SSI crossover instructors here in Australia (in terms of ability or knowledge or both). Maybe it’s only a few slipping thru the cracks, who knows?

I'm Walter Steyn from Australia and have been teaching here since 2004 so have more local knowledge about this then most. I get plenty of feedback from students that have done other courses or have had dealings with other instructors.

Linda could I ask when you said that the participants have to be good enough or they fail. Could I ask is this after they have paid their money and have done the whole course?
I would be gutted to have paid my money wasted all that time and then got nothing in return. :blackeye

We are getting a large number of SSI instructors here, the vast majority would be coming from the crossover stream. It seems like the SSI crossover courses themselves would be generating a good chunk of money. As I said before I don’t have any problem with the SSI courses in general but I can’t see how this crossover scheme is going to generate a high proportion of quality instructors. Maybe it's not a big deal, there are plenty of joke scuba instructors out there, it's just a business and it exists to make money at the end of the day.

Cheers,
Wal

 

[trullalla]

wal, the course we ran was sponsored by ssi, so nobody had to pay any money, and ssi paid the whole thing.
but this was an exception; normally the candidates pay their 800 euro fee from their pocket, unless ssi feels like wanting to sponsor more programs like that.

however, if you come and do say a aida** course and you fail the requirements, you fail the course, and you still get to pay the course fee. i don't see anything strange with that.

when you sign up for the ic, you get sent the all the info you need a month earlier, including the requirements you will have to perform in the course. if you know that you are not able to fulfill them, you either don't go to the course, or you go and do some training to prepare yourself.

we ran lots of aida course before, and they all worked like that. we don't teach people how to dive in a ic, that should be sorted in advance. if you show up to an ic after having got all the info and you still expect to be taught how to duck dive then you can't really complain you have lost the money for nothing in return...

hope that asnwers some of your doubts

 

[x_yeti]

Kars, first of all you must be SSI scuba diving instructor. And as we know only ELITE freedivers became SSI freediving instructors rofl

Unlike all of the ELITE AIDA freediving instructors out there who dived to 40m once, got lung squeeze, popped their sinuses and think the mouthfill is something from the kama sutra?

 

[fcallagy]

the mouthfill is something from the kama sutra?

You means its not and here I am reading that book over and over

 

[ericvrp]

This advanced technique is only in the 4* kama sutra ;-)

 

[deanspahic]

At the end of the day the fact that people on the IC lose their money if they don’t pass is a non issue. This is the reality for most IC out there, doesn’t mater if it is scuba or freediving. The overriding concern here is the quality of instructors being produced by this crossover scheme. Linda, I know you and know your commitment to quality. I have no doubts that you are trying to produce quality instructors and that you won’t let people slip through the cracks as it were. That was the reality for you guys with AIDA course and I’m assuming that the same holds true with SSI. The problem is that there are crap instructors being passed as Walrus said, and more are likely to be produced as more people ascend to the instructor trainer level. This is one of the things that I believe a high set of prerequisites along with higher performance requirements prevents. If you have gone through a series of freediving courses as is necessary with AIDA then you are more likely to have the knowledge required to be a reasonable effective instructor. It is not always the cases that a really good diver makes a good instructor, but being able to dive 40m comfortably with good technique – as is the requirement for the AIDA program - and taking some courses beforehand surely provides a level of experience and at least means that the instructor has a reasonable understanding of technique and training principles. The lower standards for the SSI scuba instructor crossover are a concern along with the low level of previous experience candidates are likely to possess. As I said before you need to have a significant level of experience with these types of sports to teach them. It is this way with all non-technical driven activities like freediving - skiing, climbing, wind surfing, ex. You need a feel for it before you can teach it.
As for Mr John’s comment, you are right there are some AIDA guys out there that don’t fit the bill, but not that many. Also there are a lot less of them out there than SSI is going to produce with this crossover program. Most AIDA Instructor trainers don’t pass people through that can’t perform the requirements effectively or who don’t have adequate knowledge of the material they are to teach. AIDA is for the most part synonymous with quality training and has been for many years.
One more point... If SSI is making this crossover the one way maybe they want to make it a two way street. How about freediving instructors crossing over to become scuba instructors. Don’t think they would like that idea to much. Why??? Because many freediving instructors don’t possess the knowledge required to become scuba instructors unless they have a strong scuba diving background.

 

[chrismar]

Interesting that you bring up the point about doing the other AIDA courses. My understanding of the AIDA education system, having asked about doing an instructors course, was that I had to do at the very least my 3* & 4* (I have no stars) before I could try for the instructors course. It was a major factor in me NOT becoming an AIDA instructor. Not very many top-level freedivers have gone through the whole AIDA education system, so to qualify to be AIDA instructors you have to get the Dave Mullinses, Walter Steyns, Martin Stepaneks and Herbert Nitches of the world to go and do an intermediate course? Unless I was given incorrect information, I would consider that stranger.

I can't comment on the quality of the SSI freedive instructors, but my understanding is that their SCUBA instructor program followed a similar model, at least in NZ. They focus on rapid growth, on the assumption that market forces will stabilise the numbers qualifying and quality down the track. That approach tends to mostly work in the long run, but you always get a few cowboys - especially at the beginning. Existing freedivers may not like it, but it is what it is and they're quite entitled to do whatever they like. I will withhold my judgement until I know more, but in general I only recommend courses where I know the instructor (personally or by reputation) anyway.