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Started Late

Andrew702

Member
Apr 7, 2016
49
23
23
Boston, Massachusetts
@Andrew702 “Getting to 60 meters really isn't all that difficult once you can equalize“ - I think you mean 60 feet, correct?
No I meant meters. I think 60 meters is a pretty attainable goal for most freedivers given the put in enough time to get there. It's possible to do a 60 meter FIM dive in 2 min if you profile the dive correctly though most usually take somewhere in the 2:30 range. I believe that after adaptation and equalization 60 meters is a dive that can be done with little improvement in breath hold and physical fitness.
 

xristos

Well-Known Member
Sep 5, 2013
132
33
68
24
Greece
No I meant meters. I think 60 meters is a pretty attainable goal for most freedivers given the put in enough time to get there. It's possible to do a 60 meter FIM dive in 2 min if you profile the dive correctly though most usually take somewhere in the 2:30 range. I believe that after adaptation and equalization 60 meters is a dive that can be done with little improvement in breath hold and physical fitness.
Andrew I would like to pick your brains on what you think is the way to go about increasing breath-hold? Let's say technique adaptation and equalisation are on point and trying to go beyond the 2 30 dive time(anything more start getting hypoxia signs slight lms while still conscious etc so on the limit) . Deep hangs? A freediver and physiology professor on freedivecafe.com podcast downplayed the usefulness of dry o2 tables and any dry training altogether.
 
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Andrew702

Member
Apr 7, 2016
49
23
23
Boston, Massachusetts
Andrew I would like to pick your brains on what you think is the way to go about increasing breath-hold? Let's say technique adaptation and equalisation are on point and trying to go beyond the 2 30 dive time(anything more start getting hypoxia signs slight lms while still conscious etc so on the limit) . Deep hangs? A freediver and physiology professor on freedivecafe.com podcast downplayed the usefulness of dry o2 tables and any dry training altogether.
So there's many schools of thought as to how to increase bottom time and whether static training helps. Personally I have struggled with bottom time its been my limiting factor the only reason I turned at 68m is because a strong urge to breath begins I get to the bottom with a lot of air left in my mouth. So a few months ago I started a static training plan with Florian Dagoury. My static time increased from 4:30 to 6 min in 7 session and then the second month of training I managed 6:36. I realized my hypoxic threshold is quite high cause Co2 is still my limiting factor in static.

Now did this help with my bottom time. Yes for sure it did. I usually do 20m hangs as warm up my longest before this ever was 3:12 pushing hard. Since then I've done 4 min to 28m and a 3:45 dive to 52m with 1.5 min of bottom time. So static for sure helps the question is as I proceed past 60m will I get a strong urge to breathe. I suspect there will be some changes as the lung volumes get smaller. I am in agreement that dry empty lung statics with no nose clip (very important for safety) may be the best way to simulate breatholds on deep dives. The lung volumes make a huge difference this in part is why it's much hard to hold my breath hanging at the bottom. Relaxation is another factor but I think the it's a bit cliche to say you need to be more relaxed. There's so many different ways you need to find what works for you and become familiar with a depth.

Deep hangs are amazing adaptation also but I can't stress enough, to progress slowly, as the risk of squeezing and blackouts become higher the deeper you go. Also they can only be done with a good safety who you trust. Honestly I love deep hangs but I think they are super dodgy and there needs to be extreme caution when performing them and only with very strong buddies who are competent safety divers. I am always asking my buddies for feedback when I surface and having them look for early signs of hypoxia pale skin and blue lips. If I see any of these the first thing I'll do is suspect a bit of over breathing and second I would reduce the time or depth. Wallid only recommends hangs half your PB which obviously I'm exceeding but I think he is correct to not push too much on them. I don't think deeper is necessarily better as adaptation happens with repetition not max depth.

As for the hypoxia issue it's honestly something I haven't needed to deal with. The professor may be right that hypoxic thresholds don't change much over time but that's a hotly debated subject. I suspect just like Vo2 max it can probably change a bit for a untrained diver but gains will become smaller over time. If you're becoming hypoxic on dives you really need to examine your breath up. Again there's no one magic breath up that works for every diver but whatever you do it needs to be precise and exactly the same every dive. If you're becoming hypoxic you should try breathing less and also it could be a relaxation issue. If I may ask what is your freediving level, depth and static PB and where do you train?
::
 
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Andrew702

Member
Apr 7, 2016
49
23
23
Boston, Massachusetts
@Andrew702 Wow, sounds out of my range. Breath hold time is not the problem, squeeze and equalization are. 60 meter (196 feet) seems what elite freedivers do.
You can definitely do it but you need to work on your equalization. Jonathan Sunnex is running a great deal one 1:1 EQ coaching online. Definitely recommend signing up for one. As for adaptation that is going to just take time and repetition. It's better to spend another month shallower than push to a PB a squeeze, been there done that it's useless. I can't stress enough the importance of believing. Read about the 4 minute mile and ask yourself why after the first person ran a 4 min mile multiple other runners did the same the following year? The quote "there are two people one who says they can't and one who says they can. They are both right." is particularly true in freediving. Change your inner dialogue this is a well researched topic in sports science.
 
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Reactions: xristos

xristos

Well-Known Member
Sep 5, 2013
132
33
68
24
Greece
So there's many schools of thought as to how to increase bottom time and whether static training helps. Personally I have struggled with bottom time its been my limiting factor the only reason I turned at 68m is because a strong urge to breath begins I get to the bottom with a lot of air left in my mouth. So a few months ago I started a static training plan with Florian Dagoury. My static time increased from 4:30 to 6 min in 7 session and then the second month of training I managed 6:36. I realized my hypoxic threshold is quite high cause Co2 is still my limiting factor in static.

Now did this help with my bottom time. Yes for sure it did. I usually do 20m hangs as warm up my longest before this ever was 3:12 pushing hard. Since then I've done 4 min to 28m and a 3:45 dive to 52m with 1.5 min of bottom time. So static for sure helps the question is as I proceed past 60m will I get a strong urge to breathe. I suspect there will be some changes as the lung volumes get smaller. I am in agreement that dry empty lung statics with no nose clip (very important for safety) may be the best way to simulate breatholds on deep dives. The lung volumes make a huge difference this in part is why it's much hard to hold my breath hanging at the bottom. Relaxation is another factor but I think the it's a bit cliche to say you need to be more relaxed. There's so many different ways you need to find what works for you and become familiar with a depth.

Deep hangs are amazing adaptation also but I can't stress enough, to progress slowly, as the risk of squeezing and blackouts become higher the deeper you go. Also they can only be done with a good safety who you trust. Honestly I love deep hangs but I think they are super dodgy and there needs to be extreme caution when performing them and only with very strong buddies who are competent safety divers. I am always asking my buddies for feedback when I surface and having them look for early signs of hypoxia pale skin and blue lips. If I see any of these the first thing I'll do is suspect a bit of over breathing and second I would reduce the time or depth. Wallid only recommends hangs half your PB which obviously I'm exceeding but I think he is correct to not push too much on them. I don't think deeper is necessarily better as adaptation happens with repetition not max depth.

As for the hypoxia issue it's honestly something I haven't needed to deal with. The professor may be right that hypoxic thresholds don't change much over time but that's a hotly debated subject. I suspect just like Vo2 max it can probably change a bit for a untrained diver but gains will become smaller over time. If you're becoming hypoxic on dives you really need to examine your breath up. Again there's no one magic breath up that works for every diver but whatever you do it needs to be precise and exactly the same every dive. If you're becoming hypoxic you should try breathing less and also it could be a relaxation issue. If I may ask what is your freediving level, depth and static PB and where do you train?
::
First of all, huge thanks for the detailed answer it shows the good will to help someone you don't know also you wrote very clear and structured, huge respect!

So to the dry static point, I thought that empty lung helped me i did a table with 8 holds of 2:15 hold time, this gets my spo2 around 50 - 60%. Empty lung pb 2:50 but not sure i could do surface protocol after that. Also all the holds are after serious hyperventilation (hr reaches 75bpm when hold starts, it raises a bit more after). But i did increase the hold times since i started them. After hearing to Marcin on freedive cafe podcast i' ve cut out the statics. Now that i think about i should continue till plateau.

You seem to be sure that hyperventilation lowers hypoxic limit. This happens because of weaker diving reflex or oxygen disassociation curve shift ?


On another note i ve tried the bradycardia test with ice bucket immersion of face and i did notice around 30 bpm, the thing is i find it hard to believe this happens during a dive because i was getting some physical panic reflexes in throat etc that was quite hard to physically control. I ve 3-4 years ago noticed really slow beat during frc diving practising mouthfill without the bad feelings.

So I am diving 25m since 2012 maybe earlier. My static pb was 5 years ago 4 : 55( haven't done full lung statics since). My depth bifins pb is 43 with bottom time which I ve done numerous times this year and will probably exceed it in one week in scheduled line diving. CNF pb is 37m 2 years ago(very easy dive). So far been spearing this year to improve depth adaptation because that had been troubling me for years. I do 3d/week 10 -15 dives 25 - 40m 2-2:30 min all hyperventilating in 2020. One day a week i do sprints underwater with bifins 30 sec on 60 seconds off as many i can handle. I dive in Andros island Greece this time of year, leaving in 3 days then i will be in Athens. Leave a direct message if you ever come this way !

I guess will have to ditch the nose clip in static, intersting.
 
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