Static points discusion

[Mullins]

It's interesting however that more people train static than any other discipline, yet there is more of a gap between the top diver(s) and the rest of the pack than you see in other disciplines - including CW. I'd hazard a guess that there is quite a large genetic component in play, which means performances aren't just determined by training.

Agree with the distinction between approaches 1 & 2 though. Makes a lot more sense to me to go with 2.

 

[Bill]

'I'd hazard a guess that there is quite a large genetic component in play, '
I'd hazard a guess exactly opposite. It's easy to do statics and many divers start but it takes years to train to your potential. It's for divers who didn't pick the right parents.

 

[Mullins]

Why do you think that, Bill?

My opinion is that divers who didn't pick the right parents will often never be able to achieve the static times of beginners who got genetically lucky - but then I'm no expert in static.

Edit: bit of an example - most beginners could not do 100m DYN without blacking out, but with training the majority could hit 200m i.e. more than doubling their initial distance to BO. Training effect representing a big percentage increase. Most beginners could do 5:00 static with no blackout (many 6:00 - 7:00), but I believe very, very few of them could reach 10:00 regardless of how much training they put in. Training effect not so pronounced. To double my starting pb I'd need to do 14:30!! Ain't gonna happen.

And I very much doubt that Tom Sietas would have BO'd at 5:00 prior to beginning his training, more like 7:00-8:00. Those years of specialised training have probably only given him 2-3 minutes on top of his no-training max or 30-odd percent. Didn't mean to hijack the thread but it's kind of relevant and has always interested me.

 

[efattah]

Actually, Mifsud and Sietas, who both have done 10+ minutes, started with very low statics if you look at their early competitions. They were in the 5 minute range. So either they figured out a good way to train, or... [fill in conspiracy theory].

In fact they both had single years where they jumped about 2 minutes in one year.

 

[Mullins]

Comp performances....

Note my best static in comp is 5:01! So don't expect to get any meaningful stats out of my official results, hehehe

I guess it might be down to technique. I.e. technique is essential for CW & DYN but there is no technique required for static (anybody can lie still), which lessens the impact of training. The physiological benefit you get from training might be similar to what you get in the other disciplines I suppose.

In any I reckon case the point system should be based what we know of human potential rather than try to adjust for 'competition nerves', personal preferences and the availability of training resources. So as Will pointed out static seems pretty well represented for the moment. Although I personally think DYN is set to improve faster over the next couple of years than CW/STA so would need to be reduced in value.

 

[rxcnc2]

Good to see the discussion expanding...!
It is clear that, de facto, already several organizers are using variations of the point system. Why not then have AIDA discuss and adopt a new one, to be more homogeneous.

To discuss why this or that discipline are evolving more rapidly is interesting of course (genetics? training? materials?), but the core of the matter is that they ARE*.

I think that in general it makes more sense from a statistical point of view to consider some form of average of best results in competition, rather than world records. Just consider the increase in "freediver population" over the last decade. The AIDA male ranking in CW of 2001 listed 26 results, that of 2007 has 187. Today, statistics have a meaning.

What kind of average, your choice.


* for the statistically oriented, I made a list of the top 5 in STA, DYN, CWT in the years 2001, 2003, 2007 (male only) from the AIDA official ranking. The point system in 2003 for STA was different, and it did not exist in 2001. I converted all to the current points (excluding penalties when given). You can see the results below. The great proportional increase in DYN is evident, and to some extent that of CWT too.

 

[DivingDane]

Wow this is a very interesting thread! i have absolutely no competition experience very few if any held in Australia? (could be wrong) how ever with my basic understanding i think the current system is about right (as far as Static, CW, Dynamic are concerned) however i would like to see higher values given to no fins disiplins as they in my opinion require alot more training and effort to achieve large distances. the Nordic scoring looks pretty good but i do think the Static scoring is a little low the current 0.2 i think is more suitable.

I also dont think that we should be giving greater values due to the "stress" of a competition. this "stress" everybody has to deal with in every catagory. if a diver can over come this stress than that just shows his skill level and deserves the advantage he has developed over others, after all i feel that stress of some type or another (Difficulty equalising, narcosis, CO2/O2 levels) is what we are all training to overcome and that is essentially how we improve our perfromances by learning to deal with these stresses so why accomodate stress in one disciplin and not in another???

i'm also not sure about scaling scores year to year based on performances, this does not allow historical comparisons which i think is important in the long term. to be able to see how far we have come over the years. the effort to reach a target does not change year to year, 80m CW is still 80m regardless of what year it is and is still an impressive dive so why change the value of such a dive.

anyway just an amature freedivers point of view

DD

 

[Kars]

I'm not in favour of too many changes, though some are warrented, like increasing the No fins points per metre.

To be fair I don't compair competition performances of different disciplines. Noting things like that static king is better than that dynamic diva.
Although I do use the averages to point out to people how much more respect a No fins dive deserves.

In short I'm ok with a lowering adjustment of the dynamic with fins points, whilst upping the points for the No fins disciplines. This especially in regard that I'm expecting now the CW and FI WR's will need time to overcome some new hurdles like CO2 Narcosis.

About training static, I do have to disagree with Dave about his observation that progress it's not much possible through static training. I don't think people simply can double something like their introduction static scores to know their personal static limit.
To my observation legeons of people start out freediving with an introduction static time of 1 - 2 minutes. Though they may not surface purple, they would become quickly purple when put into the stress of the unknown strugglephase, resulting in a quick BO.
And offcause there is a lot to learn and train for a good static.

Discussions about the history of Freediving records are intresting, and personally I love to see that with my modest abilities and training I can achive the results of the old legends, like Enzo's science challenging 50m dive. Maybe I'm able to achive Umberto's 80m CW someday.

Though using a mono and newer materials and techniques may give me some advantages, it still feels great to follow the pioneers' footsteps!

Looking back into the history of records it can be said that at different times different disciplines have grown out of sync. Resistance points have occured, new materials and techniques have overcome them propelling the record to it's next bumb of resistance.
I think it would be a very intresting article to have a write-up about how each discipline devellopped, including the legends' own comments, and what hurdles were overcome, and what hurdles we may expect in the near future.

1) To return to the original question of the static points, I think today's value is still usefull, but with the increasing dynamic an adjustment for next year according to discipline's averages could be beneficial for the competitions*.

2) No fins; though Static may need a little adjustment next year, I think it's much more due and needed for the No Fins disciplines.

*Another point to consider is, what is awarded more points is stimulated to be more performed.
For the audiance row after row of long statics is not very intresting to watch, but watching dynamics is much more appealing to a wider audiance.


Thank you for all your input, I hope AIDA is reading too!

Love, Courage and Water!

Kars

 

[rxcnc2]

I think it's worth reviving this post, after the Aarhus WC. The issue is that in my opinion, and that of many others', STA is underrated in the current AIDA point system. Of course, this is only of concern when a competition elects a "global winner", typically summing up DYN and STA points. There is some pride at stake, but more often than not also some money or other valuable prizes, and let's not forget the team WC! Before I launch into this, I want to clarify that for sake of simplicity I will compare only men results, only DYN and STA. I am very aware that female might have even more reasons to complain, and same goes for CNF and DNF. Also CWT might need revisiting. But I have to start somewhere, so I start with STA vs DYN.

There are two views: either look at the maximum ever done by a human being, or at what the best athletes achieve in competition. Bill's remark was

AIDA WR:
DYN, 250m - 125 points
CWT, 122m - 122 points
STA, 10'12" - 122,4 points
Even and nice...
And now: STA 11'35" - 139 points

So in this respect the point system is ok. I have no doubt that soon somebody will reach 278m dynamic, making things "even and nice".

However, the point system is not devised or used for WR like those of Tom and Stephane. And the point system is not there to measure Stephane against Tom. The point system comes into discussion when it is used to give a big prize to the guy who did the overall best results in a competition.
And this is where Aarhus comes in: it is the top competition, all the biggest names (almost) were present, there were a lot of performances (qualificatons and finals), and it is all summarized in a handy excel sheet. Again for simplicity I include also performances with penalties and DQ, both in STA and DYN.
I already wrote somewhere else that the 8 male A finalists in DYN collected 872.5 points, the STA finalists 775.4 - many were the same people. That's 12.5% more, or in other words to achieve the same total points each STA finalist should have done 1 minute more in his result....!

Another number: there were 73 DYN attempts by men (qual+finals), and 67 STA attempts. If you take the 100 points reference (200m or 8'20"), well 31 DYN were at or over this limit, and only 3 STA. That's 42.5% against 4.5%. If this is not a statisticallly significant discrepancy, I don't know what is.

It is very easy to understand the origin of the discrepancy. It was once said that a world-class freediver was a guy capable of 60m CWT and 6'STA. Since this statement, we have seen the revolution of monofins. Monofins have increased dramatically the performance of DYN, and there is no equivalent in STA. A good finswimmer with decent -but not exceptional- breathhold can grow to 200m in a matter of months. Someone may want to count how many people have done 200m in competitions ever, and how many have done 8'20". I didn't count, but I am ready to bet that there is at least 10 times more DYN than STA.

Conclusion:
if we have a discussion about the point system, it's because it is used to compare different disciplines in COMPETITIONS (not world record attempts).

there is no need to change the AIDA rules if there are many against it, but it should be encouraged and applied by competition organizers to give different weights to the points in STA and DYN (and of course to the other disciplines too). Nordic Deep set an example.

My guess, from an analysis of the Aarhus results, is that the statistical difference between STA and DYN is about 12.5 to 14.5%. i.e. 200mDYN=7'12" STA, or 250mDYN=9'. Which interestingly, is also about the maximum ever done in competition in DYN and STA.

 

[cebaztian]

One day I would like the ten strongest divers in the world spend a month together and dive all disciplines and receive weighted points.


Sebastian