Static question

[Faeton]

Hye, this is my first topic on the forum, so first I wanna say hallo to everyone.

My question is this:

My dry static is, well, at leest differenf from wet one's.
First, dry one's is longer for about 30sec, but let's say that's normal.
Second, contractions, when I do wet static, on my last and max try, I start to have contractions in about 4:30\5:00 range, and can do like 15 of them, for my max static of 6:30min. Enything over 15 is like to have BO, samba is 90% posible.

On the other hand, my dry static, contractions start in about same time, but i can tolerate over 20 of them and go over 7:00min. I never have samba or BO while doing dry statics! I know becouse i'm allways paying atention on this, monitor myself and in most cases have someone around.

So, why this is hapening?
I'm relax in wather, by all meens, I may say even more then on the dry, so I eliminate that factor... But I'm quite new in the sport, so it's might be posible that some time of adaptation must past by....

Anyone?

Tanx!

Ps. Sorry couse bad eng.

 

[trux]

Wow, 7+ min breath holds for a newbie, that's quite impressive! I would like to be there Apart from the psychical aspects, the breath up may have important influence, and cause the different curves of hypoxia and hypercapnia in both cases. In water, the diving reflex should be stronger than when training dry. But since I suspect that you strongly hyperventilate (starting to have contractions that late is quite unusual at a newcomer), these two processes may collide stronger when training in water than when doing it dry, and hence although the contractions may come at the same time, you may be already more hypoxic in water.

 

[Faeton]

Tanx for answer trux!

The case is that I do not hyperventilate, no on dry or in the wather. I allways preapre in the same way, 4 static in pathern: time of static = time of rest (I pack max on second and third static, then 70% on fourth). For the contractions, I allways have them late, both is static and dynamic.
Before last one I take 5 deep breaths, then final one + full packing.
No mether is the static on dry or in the wather. Somethimse I do sens a light hyperventilation sings but that's rare. Lately never.

 

[penguinator]

You cant be THAT new to the sport if you're packing... can you?

 

[perow1]

Well, we have the theory of air escaping/diffundating through your nose/skin while doing dry statics. Especially if you have contractions you might take minimal breaths without knowing. Using a nose clip dry i a way to go to prevent this.

I have not really noticed any air getting into my system while doing dry statics, but i tend to be able to do longer statics dry...
....at least I did in the beginning.

 

[Jee]

HI,

actually I could do longer static in water, than on the surface. Paradow way, this can be help to get an explanation for your situation.

So, what I found is, that I could do longer static in the water, because I can relax better floating in the water. Of course this rather applies on the easy phase of the dive. (actually, I twice I fall asleep - early in the morning, while doing wet static, and woke up at 3 min, and continued a clear excersize ). So I think, that is why I can do longer wet static than dry.
Probably you do the dry static lying, and I suspect, you can relax better. Maybe you did more dry static, than wet (for me the opposite). So, when doing wet static you are more aware of doing something, you think more, so you are not relaxed enough. Maybe. If so, when more relaxed, you can better control your contractions, your contraction are not so strong, and consuees less O2.

I read, that you eliminated this factor, but think about it, on subconscios state you can be a a very litte (very-very little - if you do 6'30" ! ) tense.

Also this tiny - non noticable little air move at the nose can explain some more seconds, as perow1 wrote.

 

[Faeton]

Hi Jee!

This is a werry good answer, tanx.
I think you are right on manny things in this post... First, I was dooing dry statics more then wet ones... a lot more. And yes is thrue that I tanse to bee a little nervus and tense when wet contractions occur...
I hope this will not be a case in the future, couse I now contrentrate 90% on wet statics... My goal fo static is to go ovre 7min on competition by the end of this year, and I hope i'm gonna do that!

 

[Jee]

Good luck for over 7' on competition! Sounds really serious!

On the next competition I plan to go over 5' (MAD CUP), with my PB I would go over 6'. Actually I was not thinking about counting the contractions, butit is a good idea, thanx!

 

[Faeton]

See you on the MAD CUP then! My goal for that competition is 6+ min static, try to go for 150m dyn and about 80m dnf.

That's gonna be a wery strong competition!

 

[Jee]

Sure, that is going to be very-very strong!
If you send a pm about who should I look for in Maribor, then I can meet you there. Now I do not know even from which country you are.

Impressive numbers! Good luck for that! (Speaking against myself. )

 

[SEDATE]

Wow, 7+ min breath holds for a newbie, that's quite impressive! I would like to be there Apart from the psychical aspects, the breath up may have important influence, and cause the different curves of hypoxia and hypercapnia in both cases. In water, the diving reflex should be stronger than when training dry. But since I suspect that you strongly hyperventilate (starting to have contractions that late is quite unusual at a newcomer), these two processes may collide stronger when training in water than when doing it dry, and hence although the contractions may come at the same time, you may be already more hypoxic in water.

trux while reading this post same things came to my mind :friday

i know a person like featon who can hold is breath 1 min dry but in water 3:30 easly . he can not hold his breath very long on land :crutch ,
i think Faeton has a different metobolizm and different myglobin and hemoglobin raito in his blood much more than others this two proteins caries 02 in our sytems as far as i know

trux meanwhile you know advantage or disadvantege higher hemoglobin or higher myglobin?
as far as i know higher hemoglobin makes blood thicker , it may be a disadvantage
but...higher myglobin maybe a very good advantage while holding long patern breathold or diving to deep who knows

 

[trux]

i know a person like featon who can hold is breath 1 min dry but in water 3:30 easly . he can not hold his breath very long on land

That's what is considered normal. Normally you achieve better times in water than dry, because already the facial immersion triggers bradycardia, and if you are trained well or have good predisposition, also the remaining effects of the Diving Reflex (DR) kick in, hence you consume much less oxygen.

At people achieving longer times dry than wet, on the other hand, it may be because they do it after a longer resting period (i.e morning after waking up), or maybe they even involuntary "cheat" letting small amounts of air penetrating through their nose, or simply do not try hard enough in water, or have quite weak and bad DR. And of course, as I mentioned abve, if they use to hyperventilate, it may mess with the DR and suppress so the advantage of wet apnea.

However, at those times you named, which are probably nowhere near the physiological limit of the person, it is also quite likely that psychics and personal preferences plays a siginifcant role, that may be more important than the actual oxygen consumption or CO2 / O2 levels.

 

[SEDATE]

trux thnxs...
what is your idea on myglobin effect ?
each myglobin cells only caries one 02 molucule and there is no any way to bind 2-3 more O2.. i am not sure but increased myglobin ratio in blood means more 02 transfer and also can give us more genatical advantage to go deep or to hold long period maybe 7-9 minutes without being hypoxia..

 

[trux]

Yes, of course higher level of hemoglobin and myoglobin is nice for apnea (or for living in high altitudes), but I do not think it would make any difference between dry and wet apnea.

A quote from Myoglobin: an essential hemoprotein in striated muscle -- Ordway and Garry 207 (20): 3441 -- Journal of Experimental Biology

The role of myoglobin as a store of O2 is supported by the observation that diving mammals and birds can have muscle myoglobin contents that are increased 10- to 30-fold compared with those seen in animals that do not experience prolonged apnea

 

[efattah]

Wet static creates two confounding factors:
1. Immersion pressure gradients
2. Cold

Both reduce the size of your CO2 storage capacity. Thus CO2 accumulates faster during wet static.

 

[Bill]

Thanks Eric. That explains why statics seem easier from warm-up to a certain point when I am a little cold. Is muscle heating the reason that cold seems to work better for constant? I don't know what you mean by "1. Immersion pressure gradients".
I started doing facial immersions for constant last year and they seem to work. Wonder if anyone would like to comment on the real old theory that breathing through a snorkel reduces the dive reflex. Do you think that it would be better to breathe through a snorkel during the final 5-10 minutes or start a static with a dry face?
Aloha
Bill

 

[Retrion]

Well my question would be is what really initiates the diver reflex. is it the mentality of you knowing your in water, when water touches your skin, or breathing. Because if it has to do with breathing, i don't see why the diver reflex should kick in if you use a snorkel. becuase don't you just breath normally with a snorkel?

 

[trux]

Well my question would be is what really initiates the diver reflex. is it the mentality of you knowing your in water, when water touches your skin, or breathing. Because if it has to do with breathing, i don't see why the diver reflex should kick in if you use a snorkel. becuase don't you just breath normally with a snorkel?

Face immersion is, beside others (hypercapnia, hypoxia, breath-holding itself, stress, ...), one of the more important triggers of bradycardia and DR. It is actually sensed by face thermo-receptors (there are no humidity sensors in the skin).

So although the face immersion (or cooling the face) works pretty well for bradycardia (slow heart rate), it is logical that you cannot expect staying in bradycardia for prolonged periods of time - the blood circulation wouldn't be sufficient. Also it is especially the thermo shock that kicks in the effect, so once you get used to the new temperature the effect of the face immersion wears out with time.

Breathing with snorkel can also slightly increase the CO2 level because of the "dead air" in the snorkel. That told, unless you hyperventilate (what many divers do when breathing through snorkel). The increased CO2 level could be also a factor accelerating the DR. On the other hand, again, the body cannot stay in DR, or in anaerobic mode too long, so the effect would again wear off and may be counterproductive.

Prolonging the DR and the consequent anaerobic metabolism over necessary time would deplete the body pretty quickly, and fill it up with waste products. What seems to happen at trained divers is that the body is more alert to the changes and going from one state to another quicker. Also, there are several different processes in the DR and do not necessarily change with the same speed and intensity. Some of the effects wear off pretty slow - for example spleen contraction is continuous during repetitive diving and starts to release only about 60 minutes after the last dive.

For example seals dive normally in aerobic mode, and use empty lungs dives and strong mammalian reflex (hence anaerobic mode) usually only in case of deep and long dives, or in case of danger or emergency.

I saw there were some studies done about serial diving and diving reflex (example), but unfortunately I did not find any of the documents in full form, so cannot point to any hard facts about the impact of permanently immersed face or permanent use of snorkel during serial diving.

 

[efattah]

For competition static I always breathe-up through a snorkel, for the entire session. In fact sometimes during my entire warm up I never even take my face out of the water. For me it has little to do with any facial immersion effect, and more to do with the fact that floating face down is the most relaxed position.

All my wet static pb's were done with a snorkel, 7'58" wet in practice and 7'12" in competition.

All my constant weight pb's were also done using a snorkel. Back in 2000 I did a series of objective experiments where I did statics & dives starting with different breathe-up positions, for example:
breathe-up method #A --> then dive 30m (or do static)
breathe-up method #B --> then dive 30m (or do static)
breathe-up method #A --> then dive 30m (or do static)
breathe-up method #B --> then dive 30m (or do static)

In all cases, breathing up through the snorkel resulted in the best times & depths. I even did spirometer tests to see in which position I could pack the most, and again breathing up face down with a snorkel resulted in the largest packing volume.

 

[Bill]

Thanks for the info. I've done it almost the opposite way for a few years now. The start of the max static is the first time my face has been wet for 48 hours. No snorkel, no mask, no nose clip, keep it all nice and simple. If I quickly 'make up' the 10-15 seconds that you are ahead of me on PBs, you'll know how I did it.
Aloha
Bill