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Stephane Mifsud 8'24': SAD NEWS

Thread Status: Hello , There was no answer in this thread for more than 60 days.
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Everyone,

I’m not a competitive freediver (just a lowly spearfisherman) so maybe that’s why I’m so confused about all this. From what I’ve read here on DB, neither of the 2 judges present at the attempt claim to have seen the ok sign. I guess one claims for sure it was not given and the other (Fred) doesn’t say clearly whether he saw it or not (or at least hasn’t yet that I’ve read). And to top it off, the head of AIDA (?) claims the video very clearly shows 20 seconds of the athlete in full view with no sign given. From what I’ve read here on DB, there’s absolutely no evidence the attempt was valid. Of course, everybody’s right in saying that all AIDA has to do to support their decision is to make public the 20 seconds of video fully showing Misfud not giving the ok sign. Hell, for that matter, the video is Misfud’s so why doesn’t he just make it available to the public himself and disprove AIDA’s claim that he was clearly visible for 20 seconds and no sign was given? Like I said, I don’t understand all this. It seems so simple to prove or disprove either side’s claims.

Please do not interpret my post as any sort of expert opinion, as I stated earlier I'm not a competitive freediver (not even close). I'm only stating what seems obvious to me. I also hope that as an outsider, my response might provide insight to those involved within the sport of how those outside the community view their actions/reactions.

Scott
 
Scott,

I understand your point of view.

The problem is that everyone agrees that Mifsud came up from the static with great ease -- even Dieter Baumann himself agrees with that -- which is why Dieter congratulated Mifsud on an 'amazing performance', even if it can't be recognized by AIDA.

One purpose of an organization which verifies breath-holds is to verify what is possible and what is not.

If everyone, including AIDA, accepts that the 8'24" was done with ease, and the 'record' is still not 'recognized', then something has failed, somewhere in the system. Perhaps the rules are not working. How many people have come up from a dive, or a breath-hold, without giving the okay sign, and been fine; everyone of us, during fun dives. So, it means that giving the okay sign is not actually necessary to prove that you're okay. In the old days, the okay sign was not required even by AIDA. It was added in an attempt to increase 'objectivity,' and it seems it has backfired.

When asked, is it possible for a human to hold his breath for 8'24" without BO or LMC, everyone, even the AIDA people, agree the answer is YES. So why then should the records table not reflect that?

Anyone who doubts the validity of Mifsud's performance should just watch the video themself on the link which I previously gave.


Eric Fattah
BC, Canada
 
Eric,

Thank you for your response. So, I guess what you're saying is what's really in dispute about Misfud’s attempt is the rules and not the performance (good performance, bad rules). As a non-competitor, you can see where such things are beyond my ability to debate. But I do feel that any athlete competing in any sport under any organization has the obligation to follow that particular organization's current established rules if he/she wants their performance ratified by that organization.

I'll check your link to the performance (thanks for that too).

Scott
 
Reactions: thud
I’m definitely no competitive freediver either, but from the little I know about Samba, etc., I would have to agree with Scott. If there is no proof an OK sign was given then I think the record should be disallowed. Not just because it’s a rule, but because the reason behind it was to be more objective. Judging a person by how they look is subjective, because their look and feelings can be deceiving, even to themselves. Most of us have at least seen videotape where an athlete started smiling, looked great, and maybe even started talking, without concentrating on his or her recover and then Samba.

Everyone who seen the tape might agree that he looked great, but if he didn’t give the OK signal who can state for certain that little extra effort it took, would have been enough to change his great look into a samba?

It’s a very unfortunate and frustrating situation if no okay signal was given, but I think the decision should stand. If there is proof an okay signal was given, I don’t think the athlete should be punished because his video taper missed by zooming in too close. After all it’s a freediving event, not video taping event so a person should be judged on how they freedived.

One lesson the AIDA should learn from this though, is that when ever they over rule onsite judges, they should put out a press release to db and other freediving boards with full discloser of what happened and why they are making their decision. The fact that this event created such an outcry shows that freediving popularity, with at least some people is growing, which is what the AIDA wanted. But with popularity a greater responsibility should be taken to disclose and explain their actions.
Jody
 
Reactions: sturgeon and cebaztian
For those who say that 'giving the okay sign could push him over the edge into a samba...'

You're missing the point.

When someone asks, 'how long can a human hold their breath?', they want to know just that, and they (unconsciously) are implying that the person should remain conscious and in control.

You might make the athlete get up and do a backflip after the performance, which might push him into a samba. But, even if the backflip made him samba, what does that say about human limits? It merely says that the human in question was not able to hold his breath for 8'24" AND do a backflip right after.

So, if doing the okay sign is enough effort to push the athlete into a samba, then doing the okay sign after the static should be a different category.

Even those who think the performance should be a DQ, why should it be 5 months later (after all the documentaries and the whole world think it is a record)? Why can't the judges on the spot have the authority to decide? Especially when the judges on the spot think it was good.

The bottom line is, that it is too late to DQ the record. Thousands of people have seen the documentaries on the event. AIDA can't 'hunt down' every last person who saw it and force them to sign a death-warrant saying they will never accept what they saw as true. When the whole world already believes something was done, then having an organization 'recognize' the performance has become superfluous and irrelevant. The only time an organization is needed is when there is some doubt in the public's eye about what really happened.

I urge everyone to watch the video and decide for themselves.

Another example of this was Pipin Ferraras' 170m dive for the James Cameron film. With hundreds (if not thousands) of safety/photo/spectators, and the video being eventually shown to all, those who 'doubt' do so by choice.

I have never been a fan of people who always doubt, and always think that everyone is a liar, cheater, fake, etc...

How many people do you know who have lied about their freediving performances?

Tell me that you did 110m, and I will believe you. If I don't believe you, them I'm egostical, because not believing you is just a reflection that I wish you are lying, because I can't do it myself.

Eric Fattah
BC, Canada
 
Reactions: DeepThought
I read now and 3 days this thead and I am very confused. I am not a competitive freediver (just a freediver) and I know the AIDA rules but I think that Eric Fattah have a point.
Imaging if marathonrunner finish first and dont win gold becauce
after he have finish is falling down with pain and kramps on the legs.

I dont mean that we must throw away all rules but let the rules be realistic and fair.

And I dont complain about a judgement I complain about the rules and the way that AIDA handle this.

Personaly I think that so long Stephane Mifsud have not had a samba it is a Record.
The same I think about Pipin Ferraras' 170m record.
Maybe I dont like Pipin as a person BUT his record is his record.
If Aida disagree, I don care becauce for me is still a record.
There is a pool at Deeperblue where 84.31% disagree with the judgment of the AIDA board.
84 % !!!!. Maybe people react like this without to know the story but if is like this lets AIDA come with a official statement

Aidas responsibility is big and Aida must take care and fix all the problems very fast and before freedivers around the world begin to lose respect about AIDAS board.

10 years work to create this big organisation must not go lost becauce of lack of flexibility & pragmatism


Thats from a “Just a freediver”
 
Reactions: thud
I suppose we need categories for depth dives were one jumps up onto a platform and sits for 25 seconds verses the person who stays in the water under control. http://www.holdyourbreath.ca/sign.html .

Does the public really want to know if the diver was able to get onto a platform unassisted after the dive, or do they just want to know how deep they went? Seems like some of the same people who have argued for more objectiveness in the past and whose voices were the reason the AIDA adopted the ok signal rule, are the ones now criticizing the required feat of giving the ok signal. You can’t use a required feat to establish that a diver was okay and then over look it when a diver doesn’t do it.
My humble opinion.
Jody
 
AIDA, shut up, will you?

Oh this is just complete bolloks*. What are the two judges supposed to be there for if they are not proof enough for that friggin`wee okay sign? Man, that`s pissing me off, really, buggers!

There`s more i`d have to say but my blood pressure at the moment defeats further comments. AARRGGHHHH..........!!!!!

Go Stéphane! You da man!



*typed with error to prevent from becoming `******s`. Sorry, I mind my language normally but this just had to get out.
 
Eric,

I agree and disagree. Like you, I prefer to believe someone and if Stephane said that he did 8:24 clean then I believe him and it doesn't take an official record attempt to justify it to me. However, where I do depart from your thinking is in making it an official AIDA record based upon the information that has been presented to date. I also signed your blue paper feeling that the rules needed to be changed to avoid problems like the injustices done to Stephane but recognise that until the rules are changed any freediver attempting a WR is governed by them regardless of how flawed they may be. The real surprise to me is that anyone would bother attempting an official AIDA WR until they are improved. As Scott pointed out, the judges themselves at the attempt could not agree on whether the OK sign was given (one said no and the other won't say). As the OK sign is a requirement of the rules how could the record have been OKed on the day......if it was OKed then a mistake was made under my understanding of the rules and a mistake made by the judges regardless of how much we may disagree with the process and rules does not justify validating the record. The fact that it took so long for the record to be reviewed by Dieter is disgraceful and the process for getting that done in a timely manner is obviously flawed as well, but again that is a reason to change the rules but not a reason to validate Stephane’s recordagainst the cureent rules.

As I said earlier, if Stephane says he has done 8:24 clean then I believe him and if you say you have seen the video and he was clean then I believe you as well, but until at least one of the judges says that they saw the OK sign in the required time or the video shows it given in the required time, regardless of how poorly Stephane has been treated how could AIDA validate the record against their current rules.

My view at this point given the limited info presented on this site is that a sincere apology should be sent from AIDA to Stephane for the series of systemic stuff ups that have occurred but until the OK sign can be validated by a judge or the video then the record can not offically stand as an AIDA record. It does still stands in my mind though – awesome Stephane awesome! ! 

Andy
 
Last edited:
Reactions: sturgeon
So, I`ll try again...

And, eric is absolutely right. Freediving is in no way like running or bodybuilding where cheating and lying is a sad fact. Freedivers are modest people, I`d sign that instantly. This comes from the way you have to approach the sport in order to get decent results. You can`t just do a couple of pills to get 8mins in static, you have to be calm and honest with yourself. This creates a different way of approaching world records. You cannot force it.

And by the way, dumb the judges at the event if they fail to see an action required for official recognition of the attempt and get two lads who don`t fall asleep within 8 minutes...

Did the cameraman know that his recordings were the only trustworthy proof and that the two judges were just decoration?

Something went just terribly wrong there and it wasn`t stéphanes fault. So why is he the one to be punished?

What sounds to be a good way to supervise record attempts was spoiled because noone knew what to supervise exactly. I mean the judges are there to watch the general behavior of the athlete after surfacing (hand signs, movements ect.) while the camera is there to capture facial expressions that could show signs of a samba which the judges can`t see from a distance. So keep the system, but declare the tasks for everyone involved clearly and finally!
 
To Jody,

I'm glad you linked my previous comment with the 'platform' idea of the blue paper. However, I had already considered that before I posted.

Judging must be either subjective or objective. As I posted previously, if you require tasks be performed by the athlete, then those tasks must be sufficient in order for the performance to be accepted. Currently that is not the case. In the current rules, you must perform tasks, but even if you do, you don't necessarily 'pass' judgement. That is not objectivity. Objective judging is that when the athlete does the tasks, then the dive is good. The platform idea (and other ideas in the blue paper), are methods of objective judging, where if the tasks are completed, the dive is good.

The current AIDA rules require subjective judging -- in the end, it is up to the judge to decide if the athlete is okay. So, in this case, Fred Buyle, the judge, decided that the athlete was okay.

Either you have objective judging, or subjective judging. You can't have both at once, which is what the current rules are trying to do.

If you try to have both objective & subjective judging at the same time, then you get these ridiculous cases where the athlete is obviously okay (from a subjective point of view), and the judge wants to 'okay' him, but the judge is bound by another rule which says that the athlete must be DQ'd.

A typical example of this occurred at the last CAFA November regionals. Two athletes (Glen Garrett and Mandy Cruickshank), came up from easy performances, smiled, breathed, smiled, then splashed their faces with water.

They were both disqualified.

It was obvious to everyone, including the judges, that the athletes were okay. Unfortunately, the rules say that you are not allowed to submerge your airway or splash water on your face after the performance is done.

When objective judging is in place (such as in FREE rules), so much emphasis is placed on performing the task, that it is not a triviality, and it cannot be forgotten like in the AIDA rules.

Personally I have competed in many AIDA competitions. Nevertheless, in the same November CAFA regionals I spoke of, I came up from my static, easily, and gave the okay sign instantly. I breathed, looked at the judges, looked away. Then I looked back at the judges, and I didn't understand why they were still eyeing me so carefully. Suddenly I realized I had forgotten to take off my mask! I quickly took it off and barely made it (took of my mask at T+20).

I was so concerned with trying to 'look good' (i.e. no LMC), that I had totally forgotten about my mask. After all, the primary point in AIDA judging is LMC. When athletes are coming up from their dives, they think about how they need to look 'clean.'

Similarly, in FREE rules, athletes are not worried about LMC, because LMC is not in the rules. All that is in the rules is the 'task', and so when they are coming up, the task is what they are thinking of.


Eric Fattah
BC, Canada
 
The Video

Dear Freedivers,

AIDA International is currently working on improving their website and will in the future have more possibilities to put videos online. But just to make a first start the AIDA Board agreed on putting the exit of Stephane Mifsud’s static attempt online. We made it a very small file of only 1 mb in a small resolution, because it’s very clear what happens and because of the limited bandwidth we have currently available with our hosting provider. This will change in the future and we can put bigger videos online. But I really think that for this issue this video is okay.

You can download/view the video at the following address: http://www.aida-international.org/mifsud.wmv

Remember that this is from the official videotape and it is put online only to show to everybody interested that Stephane doesn’t make an okay sign within 20 seconds. You can see Stephane completely and after 21 seconds the video zooms in on his face.

And remember; we are also reading forums, guestbook’s, mailing lists and believe me when I say that we’re still working for you. It is a very good idea to put all videos online and this will probably happen in the near future. So keep the constructive ideas coming!

Thank you and best regards,

Jorg Jansen
AIDA International
www.aida-international.org
 
.....WOW

I wish I had been there as I'd have been hanging from the rafters after that performance. Stephane looked more fresh than I do after a good nights sleep and a long warm shower....simply amazing ! ! and how about all the noise in the background that he was dealing with? Truely an inspiring performance! !

Stephane - as groats said "you are da man"
 
Jorg, thanks for posting the video.

Beside the obvious missing of the OK-sign, don't you think it was way too dark to document a world record?
If Stephane had a small samba in the first 3'' after surfacing I could not have seen it on that video. I know that turning down the lights contributes to the atmosphere on such an event, but switching off the lights when he surfaced was unappropriate for a world record attempt.

But still, kudos to Stephane for such an awesome performance.
 
Inhuman! Mifsud is 'da man!'

I asked him about his limit, and he said he thought he had 8'45" in him that day, but it looks like he could have done 9'00"+....

Also, Mifsud is one of those people who never gets contractions. He told me he has never had a contraction ever. If you look at the other video link I posted, you'll see it's 7'30" and not a wave in the water.


Eric Fattah
BC, Canada
 
8:24 and no contractions, how does that work? Eric, any idea why most people do and some lucky few don't have contractions? And what does he experience towards the end of a static?
 
I saw the video now and I think that Mifsud looked very O.K.
He does not do the O.K. Sign BUT he put both hand on his face.

For me its look like that he have forgot to make the sign. Very simple. Sould we take his Record away only becauce he have forgot to do this sign after 8 mimutes of exelente performance??
He is staying there with no a sight off LMC.

Kudos to him
 
Re: AIDA, shut up, will you?

Originally posted by groats
Oh this is just complete bolloks*. What are the two judges supposed to be there for if they are not proof enough for that friggin`wee okay sign?
Click to expand...

So one judge said he did not give the OK sign. The other one hasn't AFAICS said that he actually has seen it. So why is that not enough proof?

So you might well criticize the rules, but not the decision. It would be unfair to everybody to ignore the rules because it was a great performance. It is also unfair to insult people because they follow the rules. How unsatisfying the outcome might be.

I am confident this discussion will become obsolete by an even better performance by Stephane soon.

pi
 
Awesome performance.

BUT not according to the rules.

It is so simple - just read and obey the rules - doesnt take much effort - no splashing around - no high fives - no backflips.

And if you are an Aida member and dont like the OK sign rule - well, try to change the rule. If you are part of the majority - the rule will be changed.

BUT having said this. I know there are extra special circumstances in the MIFSUD case - the five month delay and maybe more things that has not been told yet.

I would actually suggest his record to be approved even though I am a strong supporter of rules.
The board (who seems to be the only ones doing their job in this case) CAN NOT approve the record. They were voted into the board to safeguard the rules and the statutes. If they would approve the record that would be cause to remove them in the next election.
BUT the assembly could step in and VOTE on this one case.

Just an idea. Its mixture of sticking to priciples and flexibility and pragmatism.


Sebastian /Sweden

PS. A post that should really beeb posted on the AIDA-athlete list, but I feel it is needed around here.
 
Reactions: thud
Unbelievable superb performance of a true athlete. Whatever rule there is , whichever organisation disqualifies it , to me he is the current static world record holder (untill Martin takes it over from him this week that is)
Freediving is all about feeling and to me and i am sure lots of other freedivers it "feels" he did 8'24'' cleaner then clean can be.
Any rule that says different is therefore against what freediving is and inherently wrong and in fast need to be modified as to include this type of performance. Period.


Karma to Stephane


--------------------------------
Greetzzz,

GlennV
www.glenn-venghaus.nl
 
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