Yep Haydn, forgetting ´recording´ where you are is one of the goals I have while swimming. I call it ´subconscious swimming´. And is saves a lot of energy. I´ll do this by swimming slow - mostly eyes closed - and after each stroke go into a sleepy meditative state - like I do in static. When I´m ´loosing time´ than I´m doing well.
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Stuck in dynamic can't pass 100m
- Thread starter rddk
- Start date
Thread Status: Hello
, There was no answer in this thread for more than 90 days.
It can take a long time to get an up-to-date response or contact with relevant users.
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Haydn, you reckon endurance training is going to help max DYN distance? In some cases perhaps, but if somebody can already push to samba then aerobic fitness isn't going to help much. Personally I'd be going in the other direction and trying to promote a dive response.
Bit like Kars said, I'd spend at least some of my training time trying to do consistent, controlled dives just short of your max. Key things are less breathup, and no warmups before big dives. Don't expect distance to increase right away, it's a gradual thing. Having sambas doesn't sound much like a psychological problem, unless you're changing the way you dive by speeding up, losing technique etc. Or perhaps getting really nervous with a heaps of adrenaline.
Hi Dave,
Well, Yes, I do believe long distance mono fin swimming will improve performance. Just think, most dynamic apnea fin swimmers will only ever fin a few hundred metres in a dynamic training session. And maybe only do that once a week. Imagine an olympic swimmer relying on such short distances. Now, imagine your average freediver, putting in say 10 miles in a week, for 10 weeks. That freediver will have developed a feel for the water and an economic style forced upon him as he pushes his blunt body through the water. He will streamline himself. He will also gain strength and fitness, in so much that a 100 meter fin swim will not cause him to puff out. I believe a lot of freedivers simply get puffed out and so samba, simply because they are not trained enough to do the distance regardless of whether they breath and not.
To prove it, I challenge everyone who reads this, to swim normal frontcrawl with breathing, no fins, for a constant 5 minutes (twice the time of a world class long dynamic apnea). Because, most of you will not be swimmers, I bet your arms will be like lead and you will be puffing at the end and you will only get close to the dynamic apnea record, despite swimming for twice the duration). I bet if you tried it breathold, you wont get much past 50m. Its because you are not swimmers. Do you think therefore, that because you wear a mono fin, and have used it for say 3 years, for 20 sessions a year.....mostly doing constant weight freediving in the summer, that you are any good with your mono fin as far as athletic performance is concerned? I reckon you will have not got close to totalling even 10 miles mono finning in your life. So, the solution is simply to put in the miles. Try 100 miles finning in 10 weeks as well as your static (and other training peculiar to freediving as Dave suggests), but ignore putting in the miles at your peril.
Next time your buddies spend two hours freediving the line, why dont you try two hours finning up and down the coastline. You will have finned 4 miles, compared to your buddies who will have finned about 10 x 25/50 meters.
The analogy is a bit like freefall skydiving. The parachutist has made 50 jumps but the time spent in freefall ranges from 3 to 10 seconds each dive. He has therefore accumulated a couple minutes in freefall. Does 2 minutes make him any good?
Oh! Dave, sorry to take this view in the light of your experience (especially compared to mine). But why dont you try a gentle couple hours (not talking endurance, but gentle long swims) see how it feels. Do it a few times and then let us know if it has value at top level.
As for me, I only did 3 maximum dynamic apneas, the last was 8 years ago, 156m. My best static didnt make 4:30. I must have been doing something right to get the distance with such mediocre static ability. The thing is, it is only when you try something different, will you ever get a different result. So dont keep copying what every one else does, because you will only duplicate their results.
I believe long fin swims will add as much value to freediving as the static tables did many years ago, or empty lung statics did not so long ago. So, try something different and see how it benefits you, whilst everyone keeps on doing the same old things.
Well, Yes, I do believe long distance mono fin swimming will improve performance. Just think, most dynamic apnea fin swimmers will only ever fin a few hundred metres in a dynamic training session. And maybe only do that once a week. Imagine an olympic swimmer relying on such short distances. Now, imagine your average freediver, putting in say 10 miles in a week, for 10 weeks. That freediver will have developed a feel for the water and an economic style forced upon him as he pushes his blunt body through the water. He will streamline himself. He will also gain strength and fitness, in so much that a 100 meter fin swim will not cause him to puff out. I believe a lot of freedivers simply get puffed out and so samba, simply because they are not trained enough to do the distance regardless of whether they breath and not.
To prove it, I challenge everyone who reads this, to swim normal frontcrawl with breathing, no fins, for a constant 5 minutes (twice the time of a world class long dynamic apnea). Because, most of you will not be swimmers, I bet your arms will be like lead and you will be puffing at the end and you will only get close to the dynamic apnea record, despite swimming for twice the duration). I bet if you tried it breathold, you wont get much past 50m. Its because you are not swimmers. Do you think therefore, that because you wear a mono fin, and have used it for say 3 years, for 20 sessions a year.....mostly doing constant weight freediving in the summer, that you are any good with your mono fin as far as athletic performance is concerned? I reckon you will have not got close to totalling even 10 miles mono finning in your life. So, the solution is simply to put in the miles. Try 100 miles finning in 10 weeks as well as your static (and other training peculiar to freediving as Dave suggests), but ignore putting in the miles at your peril.
Next time your buddies spend two hours freediving the line, why dont you try two hours finning up and down the coastline. You will have finned 4 miles, compared to your buddies who will have finned about 10 x 25/50 meters.
The analogy is a bit like freefall skydiving. The parachutist has made 50 jumps but the time spent in freefall ranges from 3 to 10 seconds each dive. He has therefore accumulated a couple minutes in freefall. Does 2 minutes make him any good?
Oh! Dave, sorry to take this view in the light of your experience (especially compared to mine). But why dont you try a gentle couple hours (not talking endurance, but gentle long swims) see how it feels. Do it a few times and then let us know if it has value at top level.
As for me, I only did 3 maximum dynamic apneas, the last was 8 years ago, 156m. My best static didnt make 4:30. I must have been doing something right to get the distance with such mediocre static ability. The thing is, it is only when you try something different, will you ever get a different result. So dont keep copying what every one else does, because you will only duplicate their results.
I believe long fin swims will add as much value to freediving as the static tables did many years ago, or empty lung statics did not so long ago. So, try something different and see how it benefits you, whilst everyone keeps on doing the same old things.
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Just a brief comment, as I don't have a lot of time - I've done aerobic finning work and like the other freedivers I've talked to I found it improved recovery time but reduced my max distance, at least in the short term. It's fine for drilling technique and getting base fitness up to standard in the off-season so that you can then handle the freedive-specific training without burning out, but aside from that it's just not directly relevant to the adaptations you need for freediving. I tend to do sprint & strength work in the pool for CWT plus some slow stuff for technique and flexibility, but I largely avoid endurance-based exercise. Freediving is essentially a slow-mo sprint in physiological terms, and you wouldn't see 100m track specialists doing regular 10km runs (granted though, it's a bit different in swimming where the sprinters do some distance work).
I don't want to say flat out "it's crap, don't do it" because at this stage in the sport nobody really has a firm handle on what training approach works best. But I know that it's possible to be at the top of the sport with no aerobic/volume training at all (just ask Guy Brew), so while it may be helpful at certain stages of a training cycle I see it as largely peripheral.
I don't want to say flat out "it's crap, don't do it" because at this stage in the sport nobody really has a firm handle on what training approach works best. But I know that it's possible to be at the top of the sport with no aerobic/volume training at all (just ask Guy Brew), so while it may be helpful at certain stages of a training cycle I see it as largely peripheral.
I would go halfway though, and say that if you get that sudden heavy/sore feeling towards the end of a dynamic then you probably are just out of shape and could use a bit of volume to start off with. I'd still be inclined to do it in apnea however e.g. 10-20x50m swims with short intervals.
i google guy brew , maybe not very fit, only seems thst he does exel at static discipline which is conducive to little fitness
that's what i felt a few months ago: heavy and sore legs past 75-80m, and a hard way until 100-105m, often coming out at 90 or so due to the feelings in the legs but with a loooot of apnea left in my lungs
after some endurance training with Iaia and the feelings changed completely: now i am sure i can stand 100+m (feeling very strong: i might say i have 150+ in my legs and lungs) but have no head for that...:blackeye
any tip for brain training, Dave? maybe hitting a wall as hard as i can a couple of times, just to reset some things inside it? :head
I can agree with the comment Dave, regarding the sprinters not doing long distances. My point is that when you do a long distance fin swim, your pace and rythmn must remain the same as if you were in a dynamic apnea. Whereas the pace of a sprinter is totally different to that if he were to run a marathon. Therefore when you do a long diistance fin swim, you get the chance to get two hours finning in one session, rather than a few 50 meter swims with intervals. Duplicate a long swim a few times and you get a reel feel for the water. You will feel more at home. Then those last 25 meters of the dynamic will be far more comfortable because you will be able to concentrate on the exit rather than worrying about the overall distance. 100 meters will seem like nothing as far as the swimming part of the dynamic is concerned. Combine this with the specialist part of the discipline as Dave says, and you will get there, and more.
I believe long distance finning will kick start your dynamic apnea in a few weeks, whereas if you ignore it and go straight into the specialist part of freediving, you will take the long way around whilst waiting for experience and adaption, reflex etc to kick in. By then the summer is over and your water time much reduced. Do both. Most people of course, will only ever freedive on a line or dive reefs. That is not training, it is what you do the training for.
Of course, you dont need a companion either. Just get down to the beach and put in the miles.
As for me, certainly not the typical athletic, too old, too much blubber and spectacularly rubbish at static (probably due to my arythmia), so how come the dynamic worked so well all those years ago?
I believe long distance finning will kick start your dynamic apnea in a few weeks, whereas if you ignore it and go straight into the specialist part of freediving, you will take the long way around whilst waiting for experience and adaption, reflex etc to kick in. By then the summer is over and your water time much reduced. Do both. Most people of course, will only ever freedive on a line or dive reefs. That is not training, it is what you do the training for.
Of course, you dont need a companion either. Just get down to the beach and put in the miles.
As for me, certainly not the typical athletic, too old, too much blubber and spectacularly rubbish at static (probably due to my arythmia), so how come the dynamic worked so well all those years ago?
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Sorry if i answer only today but i've been in holiday, btw am swimming a lot cuz am going to do the apnea academy instructor course since endurance swimming is one of the request, i swim 2 km 2 times a week, also i do 2 times a week dyn apnea and i run 6 km 2 a week. Am in good shape since i used to do fighting sport and fight as semi pro so my body is well trained. I think that my problem is too much aerobic work, i'll switch to anaerobic as dave suggested me since i've read that lot of top freedivers like him totally avoid the aerobic work.
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We have had a couple of people in Sydney Freedivers over the last year that as they went over 80m started having sambas and one diver blacked out mid lap. (Our safety was in and there was no problem) but we were used to having divers build up over a couple of months and pull their 100m with no real bugs.
We thought something different was going on with one diver. He struggled to get past 80m for months. We have a deal with the local hospital. They help us and run their tests on us.... (hmmm... they have been studying the effects of packing but that is another story) Anyway... we had this diver tested for anemia and any thing odd in with his hemoglobin etc. He tested up fine. No situation.
He had been doing CO2 tables fairly regularly trying to increase distance, but as he had proved that he could push himself to samba and blackout we advised he no longer did that. He went onto a program similar to Dave's advise of doing frequent swims just under his problem area with the idea that over a few months he will change his body's construction. Despite his impatience he maintained it and his distance started to increase.
It appeared he had a nervousness or anxiousness that may have been burning up O2. He would get wired before a swim but this calmed down as he did swim after swim just short of his pb. Then one night he pulled his 100m. He had a samba which he managed without help but it gave him confidence. Another freediver advised him to really stomp out his recovery breaths. It was just the right bit of technique for him and a couple of days later he did a completely clean 100m. He has done them regularly since.
More recently another diver was sambaing every now and then at about 80m. Not big sambas. We did the same handling. For a few weeks he did swims just short of his best clean dyn and we drilled him on his recovery breaths. It was two weeks ago he did his first 100m completely clean. He backed it up last week with another one.
I hope this helps.
Judge
We thought something different was going on with one diver. He struggled to get past 80m for months. We have a deal with the local hospital. They help us and run their tests on us.... (hmmm... they have been studying the effects of packing but that is another story) Anyway... we had this diver tested for anemia and any thing odd in with his hemoglobin etc. He tested up fine. No situation.
He had been doing CO2 tables fairly regularly trying to increase distance, but as he had proved that he could push himself to samba and blackout we advised he no longer did that. He went onto a program similar to Dave's advise of doing frequent swims just under his problem area with the idea that over a few months he will change his body's construction. Despite his impatience he maintained it and his distance started to increase.
It appeared he had a nervousness or anxiousness that may have been burning up O2. He would get wired before a swim but this calmed down as he did swim after swim just short of his pb. Then one night he pulled his 100m. He had a samba which he managed without help but it gave him confidence. Another freediver advised him to really stomp out his recovery breaths. It was just the right bit of technique for him and a couple of days later he did a completely clean 100m. He has done them regularly since.
More recently another diver was sambaing every now and then at about 80m. Not big sambas. We did the same handling. For a few weeks he did swims just short of his best clean dyn and we drilled him on his recovery breaths. It was two weeks ago he did his first 100m completely clean. He backed it up last week with another one.
I hope this helps.
Judge
