Super wetsuit: warmer, more slippery, doesn't wet

[sebastien murat]

I think those ocean going sail race boats would be very pleased with it as well.
You could develop different types for different applications. Does it work as anti-fouling?

How expensive are the ingredients, can you make it in small quantities, and in big ones?

You can call your product mirrorskin, just a idea.

Are you able to make it affordable for regular consumers?
Can you use it on stretch Nylon swimsuits?

I think if the rubber underneath is solid enough water ingress at depth may not be such a big problem.
It's pleasing to know we got another cool freediver/inventor developing cool stuff. And actually I'm happy it's not suited for an army, they already got enough killing power.

I'm looking forward to some test numbers and maybe a nice small video.

Godspeed.

There are many applications, including keeping you mobile dry.

From an anti-fouling perspective there needs to be a stable air layer. The stability of the thin air film separating the substrate from the water in superhydrophobic materials experiences progressive decay with time, and this is dependent on the immersion depth, amongst other factors. The limited underwater stability limits their scope for commercial applications, unless air is re-instituted, or the nature of the substrate altered. You could probably re-institute air with an aquarium pump, since the air pancakes over the surface. I've opted to rely on using both approaches.

Coating this stuff on swimsuits (not wetsuits) would not be allowable in competitions. See the FINA rules.

I'm still crunching numbers to generate costings.

 

[watts]

My old fastskins did the same thing. They held a small amount of air on the surface for a few minutes only though. With the muscle compression of the suit the glide was great.
Once saturated the air effect was stopped.

 

[sebastien murat]

Hi Nathan,

I had one too, but the effect is different here. We're not talking about trapping a few bubbles here and there, which has been shown to actually increase drag. This stuff forms a film. You can actually see your own reflection and it stays on the suit certainly for the duration of a swim session and despite the perceived stripping effect it would have at swimming speed.

 

[mista fox]

Hi Nathan,

I had one too, but the effect is different here. We're not talking about trapping a few bubbles here and there, which has been shown to actually increase drag. This stuff forms a film. You can actually see your own reflection and it stays on the suit certainly for the duration of a swim session and despite the perceived stripping effect it would have at swimming speed.

I'd would love to see this. Sounds incredibly cool!

 

[sebastien murat]

And for another trick, I placed some water on the elastic coating and placed it in the freezer. Sure enough, the next day the ice that formed simply peeled off with no effort. Another section in which I let the ice melt promptly beaded-up the liquid and it uneventfully just rolled off. This would suggests that if you dive way up north or way down south you wouldn't have to worry about trying to de-ice your suit on those cold mornings.

I've now left a section u/w, in the Baltic, to see just how long the air film can be retained under real-life conditions, thereby simulating, for example, a boat hull sitting in water for a long time.The aim here is to monitor for potential anti-fouling properties. As you no doubt appreciate, fouling requires the application of untold amounts of potentially harmful chemicals into our environment and the dispersion of pests across oceans.


Did anothe really rough trial to see if the coating makes a difference in terms of glide distance on a 10cm x 5cm floatsam section: BIG difference....maybe 2-3 further. These `killer´ experiments are really rough, but so is the real world. Still, time to get a little more scientific

Final test: water speed air film stripping test

Mid-late next week, some pics and videos.

 

[growingupninja]

There are many applications, including keeping you mobile dry.

From an anti-fouling perspective there needs to be a stable air layer. The stability of the thin air film separating the substrate from the water in superhydrophobic materials experiences progressive decay with time, and this is dependent on the immersion depth, amongst other factors. The limited underwater stability limits their scope for commercial applications, unless air is re-instituted, or the nature of the substrate altered. You could probably re-institute air with an aquarium pump, since the air pancakes over the surface. I've opted to rely on using both approaches.

Coating this stuff on swimsuits (not wetsuits) would not be allowable in competitions. See the FINA rules.

I'm still crunching numbers to generate costings.

Re: keeping mobile dry. I like the idea of putting it on wetsuits but a technology like you are describing commercially exists for 'dunkproofing' electronic devices. It is very new, and not cheap (I think $50 for an iPhone). The company that does it also requires that you mail the device in so they can do the treatment. The review I read said it really worked; the phone would be dunked and emerge completely dry and working fine.

 

[watts]

Would not a good nanotech coating be better as you could wear the suit in pool and for depth? Could also use on monofins. Has anyone used nanotech diy on suits?

 

[sebastien murat]

As of 2012, there does not exist a coating that can maintain an air-film and, therefore, offer hydrodynamic drag reducing properties to any great depth (> 1m). All the coating that have been commercialized, e.g.,NeverWet, by Ross Nanotechnologies, give demos of water-proofing in such tings as water-filled bowls. You'll never see them throwing the phones in swimming pools! Would be ok if you dropped it in a deep puddle of water on a rainy day, but once again the impact from a heavy rain droplet or salt-spray coming in at +20 knots is substantial and would likely invade the topographical nano features unless these were really small and densely distributed. Further, there exists no fully elastic superhydrophobic coating.

The notion of simply applying a nano-coating and there you have it is an over simplification. To impart hydrodynamic drag reducing properties at depth would require the formation of elastic, high density, hierarchical, re-entrant (curved and in-cutting) features spanning the scale from single digit nanometer to to about half a millimeter. The technology to do this presently does not exist, let alone on a large commercial scale.

Anyway, I'm not about to get into the phone game.

Here's the link to a video I did late last night:

Couple of things about the video:
- I used neoprene rubber
- I applied a rough white coating
- I used ordinary tap water, and I also dyed some for better contrast
Things to note: with fast movements of the material the droplets and puddles essentially do stand-stills and stay in the same place....that's hydrodynamic slip for you. If there wasn't an air-film, you simply get long streaks as the water dragged on the substrate

 

[lojo]

Before going commercial or sending testers. Make sure you cover well your effort with patents.

In case of having mass production outsourced, like in china. Also get them to sign good sealed contracts if you don't want to see your product sold in a cheaper version in alibaba a few weeks later.

Testing the effects of the product in the environment would probably costy but necessary to sell the product. Perhaps certifying under ISO 14000 and similars.

The video really looks great. Has it been tested how the trapped air reacts to compression at depth? (maybe I missed something in the thread about that).

 

[watts]

So the nano coatings on tri suits don't work?

 

[guybly]

I agree with lojo; Sebastian, I hope you have a good international Patent lawyer.

 

[Kars]

Another use, wind shield spray, helmet visor spray, high window spray, if it can be made transparent.

Another use, to make waterproof clothing, tents, rucksacks and water containers.
In the outdoors NOT carrying soaked fabric really helps to keep the weight under control.
Does it hold up in harsh sunlight? Perhaps as roof material?


How did you come up with idea? was it a happy coincidence?

 

[sebastien murat]

Before going commercial or sending testers. Make sure you cover well your effort with patents.

In case of having mass production outsourced, like in china. Also get them to sign good sealed contracts if you don't want to see your product sold in a cheaper version in alibaba a few weeks later.

Testing the effects of the product in the environment would probably costy but necessary to sell the product. Perhaps certifying under ISO 14000 and similars.

The video really looks great. Has it been tested how the trapped air reacts to compression at depth? (maybe I missed something in the thread about that).

Hi. Thanks. I'm acutely aware of the the +/- of patenting, `design-arounds´, and trade secrecy. I 'm also well aware of the habits of our friends way east. Thanks for the heads-up on the ISO though. I'm presently doing tests for use at depth, but my primary interest is in its applicability for use close to the water surface or in snow, and then primarily for sports.

 

[sebastien murat]

So the nano coatings on tri suits don't work?

Nano coatings only work well when they are low surface energy, like telfon, and then only when they can be hierarchical assembled and with the right shaped features. So, not really. Tried it, and you'll see what I mean. 99.9% of what is is pure nano hype.

 

[sebastien murat]

Another use, wind shield spray, helmet visor spray, high window spray, if it can be made transparent.

Another use, to make waterproof clothing, tents, rucksacks and water containers.
In the outdoors NOT carrying soaked fabric really helps to keep the weight under control.
Does it hold up in harsh sunlight? Perhaps as roof material?


How did you come up with idea? was it a happy coincidence?

No it can't be made transparent.

Sure there are lots of, let's call them camping products, that need to be kep dry, and maybe there's scope there too.

I looked across 400 millions of evolutionary solutions and then applied a biomimetic solution.

 

[Simos]

No it can't be made transparent.

Sure there are lots of, let's call them camping products, that need to be kep dry, and maybe there's scope there too.

I looked across 400 millions of evolutionary solutions and then applied a biomimetic solution.

If you can somehow get it into a hair spray for women, you'll be a very rich man in no time

 

[Ziggy85]

Following this thread with great interest especially with winter on the way. Sebastien please let us know when you are ready to start selling this product or if you need some field testers!

 

[sebastien murat]

Wetsuit manufacturers will be the target market instead of consumers.

By the way, I've now gathered evidence that drag can be reduced not just at the surface but also to commonly encountered freediving depths. This is a first because there presently exists no in-lab solution, let alone a product on the market, that can offer or sustain drag reduction beyond maybe a few centimeters depth of water.

 

[rddk]

Seb the video is private can't see it

 

[sebastien murat]

I removed it. Away. Back Sunday. Open it for you then.