Whether or not you experience leg burn also seems to depend on your swimming speed. I've finished some of my longest (very slow) dynamic swims with little or no leg burn, well past the point at which my legs would have failed completely had I been swimming at 1m/s. I suppose it is a bit different for CW dives though as you're forced to expend a fair amount of energy on the first half of the ascent.
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SWB: Reducing the Risk
- Thread starter sebastien murat
- Start date
Thread Status: Hello
, There was no answer in this thread for more than 90 days.
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Mullins,
I get in in dynamics also! Sometimes to the point where I can hardly walk after a swim.
Seb
I get in in dynamics also! Sometimes to the point where I can hardly walk after a swim.
Seb
I have since taking a course with Murat been trying to switch over to more DR kind of diving.
http://www.freediving.biz/features/muratarticle1.html
Just back from Dahab where I have been doing a couple of CNF to 50 meters. My dives usually involves contractions halfway on the way down. I have learnt to live with this. The pressure makes it somehow endurable (in dynamics I bail out). Now I have sacrificed part of my suit on the altar of the DR-gods.
I have suceeded in getting lactic right after the turn which realy scares the shit out of me - this total fatigue taking every fibre in possesion and feeling of "I am going to BO". I even get lactic in muscles I did not think I have.
I always make it - but it is not pleasant diving "sir Murat" is proposing with is uncahallenged logic.
Next step - get rid of my so much loved mask. I am not looking forward to it. Damn you, SebastiEn ;-)
Sebastian
http://www.freediving.biz/features/muratarticle1.html
Just back from Dahab where I have been doing a couple of CNF to 50 meters. My dives usually involves contractions halfway on the way down. I have learnt to live with this. The pressure makes it somehow endurable (in dynamics I bail out). Now I have sacrificed part of my suit on the altar of the DR-gods.
I have suceeded in getting lactic right after the turn which realy scares the shit out of me - this total fatigue taking every fibre in possesion and feeling of "I am going to BO". I even get lactic in muscles I did not think I have.
I always make it - but it is not pleasant diving "sir Murat" is proposing with is uncahallenged logic.
Next step - get rid of my so much loved mask. I am not looking forward to it. Damn you, SebastiEn ;-)
Sebastian
Freedivers, as opposed to spearfishers, want enjoyable ("it felt easy") dives, all the while realizing their maximum physical potential. Indeed, some in the french and italians schools say: "surfacing with a smile on you face." Just because some world records have been set that way, one certainly should not interpret such as athletes as having realized their true potential....far from it I would argue. My way, there can be no smiling during the dive, only after, otherwise your not where you ought to be.
You can't have it bottom ways...but you can have a little of both!
The damned
S
You can't have it bottom ways...but you can have a little of both!
The damned
S
This is one of the best tread i have read in this forum. It makes sens to remove the mask if you feel that you are on the edge of BO. But isn't this going to affect the balance and peace of the dive. I have been thinking and i haven't tray it yet but it make more sens to take the mask of once when the accent start. If that is going to give you better 02 conservation why wait for the problem when you can just avoid it .
Alex
Alex
Sebastien,
What kinda physical training do you recommend for spear fishing other than going a lot? Apnea cycling?
Thanks for the blackout info. Much appreciated.
What kinda physical training do you recommend for spear fishing other than going a lot? Apnea cycling?
Thanks for the blackout info. Much appreciated.
Amihov,
Sometimes the problem is salient (jumping out at you). Rather it is latent (hidden and dormant...waiting to pounce on you). Indeed, the more you work (exercise) during the first part of a dive (e.g., swimming down) the less your urge to breathe. Furthermore, the faster you ascend, or the larger your (absolute) lung volume, the less your tolerance to hypoxia (low O2). Both of these nfactors, low resistance to hypoxia and reduced urge to breathe increase risk of a BO. Sometimes, divers BO eventhough they surfaced with little, say no, yrge to breathe is what I'm getting at, because of the above.
Seb
Sometimes the problem is salient (jumping out at you). Rather it is latent (hidden and dormant...waiting to pounce on you). Indeed, the more you work (exercise) during the first part of a dive (e.g., swimming down) the less your urge to breathe. Furthermore, the faster you ascend, or the larger your (absolute) lung volume, the less your tolerance to hypoxia (low O2). Both of these nfactors, low resistance to hypoxia and reduced urge to breathe increase risk of a BO. Sometimes, divers BO eventhough they surfaced with little, say no, yrge to breathe is what I'm getting at, because of the above.
Seb
Greek Diver,
The best excercise for spearfishing will depend on what your objective is, i.e., the combination on depth, bottom time, dive behavior (sit-and-wait or swim) and surface interval. I can't tell you unless I know these parameters. But, I can tell you, apnea cycling isn't it....sorry. You simply must be in the water...pool ideally.
Seb
The best excercise for spearfishing will depend on what your objective is, i.e., the combination on depth, bottom time, dive behavior (sit-and-wait or swim) and surface interval. I can't tell you unless I know these parameters. But, I can tell you, apnea cycling isn't it....sorry. You simply must be in the water...pool ideally.
Seb
Don't forget trying to improve your swimming/kicking Techique 
For example most spearfisherman I've seen dive down on a pretty big angle, if you can learn to descend straight down and streamlined makes a huge difference. One way can be to practise diving on a line, just to get the feeling of what's it's like to be vertical. Also by practising in a pool by counting kicks and checking time per lap you can see the effects of streamlining. My thoughts are most people doing deep or competive type freediving are far more limited by swimming technique rather then their physical training approach. Technique changes can last almost forever rather then physical training will wear off. I've had long periods with no training and still been able to do really big dynamics just from good technique and large lung volume.
Cheers,
Wal
For example most spearfisherman I've seen dive down on a pretty big angle, if you can learn to descend straight down and streamlined makes a huge difference. One way can be to practise diving on a line, just to get the feeling of what's it's like to be vertical. Also by practising in a pool by counting kicks and checking time per lap you can see the effects of streamlining. My thoughts are most people doing deep or competive type freediving are far more limited by swimming technique rather then their physical training approach. Technique changes can last almost forever rather then physical training will wear off. I've had long periods with no training and still been able to do really big dynamics just from good technique and large lung volume.
Cheers,
Wal
Sebastien, as I understood from your post , the "burn" that I feel at the end of the dive is due to DR,vasoconstriction and finaly muscle fatigue.
I my max dynamics that "burn" is always the reason I surface.I haven't had a samba or a blackout in DYN and my PB is about 135-140m.
Now reading your post I supose I could go for a couple of more meters with that burning sensation as it's not a sign being close to BO.
The 'burn' is due to muscle fatigue because of the vasoconstriction.
Most divers don't experience such conditions for several reasons, not least excessive gear covering the face and limbs, known to accentuate the dive response. Of course genetics, training status would be other factors. Even fewer would experience the burn in the pool, where depth-dependent effects on vasoconstriction are essentially absent.
If you experience a burn, it is probably due to genetics...I'm assuming you wear hood, mask, and you swim from the outset (i.e., no prior static phase before a dynamic)?
You could probably swim further, but the question is how much? I don't know you, so can't say. I'd have to test you with HR monitor to know for sure. But that's another story altogether.
S
Most divers don't experience such conditions for several reasons, not least excessive gear covering the face and limbs, known to accentuate the dive response. Of course genetics, training status would be other factors. Even fewer would experience the burn in the pool, where depth-dependent effects on vasoconstriction are essentially absent.
If you experience a burn, it is probably due to genetics...I'm assuming you wear hood, mask, and you swim from the outset (i.e., no prior static phase before a dynamic)?
You could probably swim further, but the question is how much? I don't know you, so can't say. I'd have to test you with HR monitor to know for sure. But that's another story altogether.
S
Why is that? I assumed the oppsite would happen, due to more CO2 production.
Relatively speaking, the urge to breathe is delayed with exercise, or in other words, the break-point occurs when you are more hypoxic. This occurs because CO2 is buffered by the muscles (CO2 is highly soluble in muscle).
S
S
I don't wear a hood or a mask, just goggles and as my PB is 6 widths(one width is 23m) the "burning" starts at about 4th and increases progressively.
So it's a good thing that I experience burning?Does it mean that my body is trying to save oxygen?
When talking about training techniques, let's keep things in perspective. Personally I found that my best statics & dives happened while doing only one type of training: apnea hiking, nothing else.
Herbert Nitsch set his 111m CW record and his 9'04" static record doing only one type of training: apnea bike, nothing else.
This is not saying that wet forms of training don't work. It simply says you can reach unbelievable levels of performance with minimal wet training....
The more time you spend in the water, the better you tend to dive, but this is not only a result of improved dive reflex & adaptations, but also natural and instinctive improvements in your style & technique.
Herbert Nitsch set his 111m CW record and his 9'04" static record doing only one type of training: apnea bike, nothing else.
This is not saying that wet forms of training don't work. It simply says you can reach unbelievable levels of performance with minimal wet training....
The more time you spend in the water, the better you tend to dive, but this is not only a result of improved dive reflex & adaptations, but also natural and instinctive improvements in your style & technique.
This is getting way off topic, but I would be interested to know (and I am sure I'm not the only one), what kind of apnea bike training Herbert does. Or in any case, what is the most useful. Ie should you do short, frequent apneas, or max apneas and at what intensity should the workout be? I think a lot of people are doing it "wrong". Then again, I really have no idea what is right, but I do know that doing tons and tons of too hard apnea training will only lead to overtraining and frustration.
A lot of it comes down to strategies I guess. On an e-dive, or even sub maximal packing, a strong dive response is of course your best friend. But at least from my own experience, if you train "the dark side", water really doesn't seem to do much for the performance, because I believe much of the response is countered by the effects of full packing. But when talking about huge volumes (like packing 3-4 liters), the latter strategy seems to lead to better performance (but at a cost, as we know)?
A lot of it comes down to strategies I guess. On an e-dive, or even sub maximal packing, a strong dive response is of course your best friend. But at least from my own experience, if you train "the dark side", water really doesn't seem to do much for the performance, because I believe much of the response is countered by the effects of full packing. But when talking about huge volumes (like packing 3-4 liters), the latter strategy seems to lead to better performance (but at a cost, as we know)?
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Training dynamics at or near maximum intensity has taken me up to some pretty decent distances. I can do about 4-6 days per week without symptoms of overtraining if I get adequate rest, though every now and then I need a few days off. Thought I'd mention this because it sounds like it is an unusual approach, at least for dynamics. However it has worked very well, to this point. I'm inclined to agree with what Sebastien has said previously about training specificity.
Specificity, specificity, specificity
Motivation, motivation, motivation
Safety, safety, safety
But some of you guys are suggesting:
cross-training because you can't get motivated to go the distance and because your approach is, relatively speaking, unsafe.
I can't buy into this.
You make it sound like rocket-science: CO2 tables, pyramid sets, bla, bla, bla. No wonder you can't find the optimal recipe.
Sorry..had a bad nights sleep, which means I'm a bit too tired and short today.
Seb
Motivation, motivation, motivation
Safety, safety, safety
But some of you guys are suggesting:
cross-training because you can't get motivated to go the distance and because your approach is, relatively speaking, unsafe.
I can't buy into this.
You make it sound like rocket-science: CO2 tables, pyramid sets, bla, bla, bla. No wonder you can't find the optimal recipe.
Sorry..had a bad nights sleep, which means I'm a bit too tired and short today.
Seb